Scott Neville, Anita

Name of interviewee: Anita Scott Neville

Name of interviewer: Samuel Scarborough

Date of interview: July 16, 2026

Location of Interview: Durham, North Carolina

Anita Scott Neville  00:00

What to do?

Samuel Scarborough  00:03

Well, we'll be good. It's a pretty straightforward process. I'll just be asking a few questions, and this will be very conversational. It's not going to be like an interrogation.

Anita Scott Neville  00:15

Okay.

Samuel Scarborough  00:15

Yes, ma'am. Well, to start off, just want to say today on July 16 at 4:15 p.m? 4:17. Yes, ma'am. Thank you, thank you. We're here recording an oral history today with Anita Scott Neville.

Right now, there- there's so many titles that we can go to to describe her legacy. But to start, she's a Durham native who has roots, deep roots, in the Hayti community. She was a member of the first class of students to graduate in what she deems as the "forced integration school system," which we'll talk more about that in the course of our conversation. And she was the first Black student to hold various leadership positions at the white school she was assigned to. 

Ms. Scott Neville is a graduate of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and has led a career in public service for decades ever since. Currently, she is the director of Hayti Reborn, which is a coalition advancing community-led development, cultural preservation, [and] justice, so our communities can thrive without displacement. They've been very instrumental in advocating for the preservation of the Hayti community. Ms. Scott Neville is also a trainer on the Peaceful Schools Staff Development Team and serves as Restorative Practices Coordinator and Equity Champion in Durham Public Schools. Among many titles and among many things she's involved with right now, Ms. Scott Neville it is an honor to be here with you today. I want to first start off, kind of where we, I guess, talking before. How are you feeling today?

Anita Scott Neville  01:47

I'm feeling privileged today. For several years now, in my recent past, I've been fortunate to have opportunity to serve, to serve the community, and in that service, one assignment will beget another assignment will beget another assignment, and they're all complementary, and they all affirm that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. So, I feel privileged.

Samuel Scarborough  02:23

Yes, ma'am. That's profound. To start off a little bit on the historical lane, how long has your family been living in the Hayti community, and are they originally from the area?

Anita Scott Neville  02:35

To be clear, I did not sleep in Hayti. I worked with my father and mother in Hayti. My father owned- was one of the many business owners on Pettigrew Street, the thriving business district that supported- it , yes, it supported the Black community, but because it supported the Black community's needs across a broad spectrum, it supported Durham. And so, let me see, let me think. 

I can remember the jobs my father had before working in Hayti. He was recruited by Pops Turner, who was the husband of Vy [Viola] Turner, who was the first female to serve on the North Carolina Mutual Board of Directors. And Pops was a member of the National Negro Baseball League before they came to Durham. I'm not sure. I think my father met the Turners through a mutual friend, but Mr. Turner, I didn't call him Pops, but Mr. Turner and Mrs. Turner, in- as was the tradition amongst many Black families, yes, that was my father's boss, but they familied us. Okay, they were in our homes sharing meals, home sharing meals, and vice versa. I want to say I don't know that I have a particular year. I know, I know very clearly when I got my driver's license on a Thursday, on that following Friday, I was in the van with my father. Mr. Turner bequeathed the business to my father. So, while Mr. Turner was living, my father was a member of the sales staff of Turner's Beauty and Barber Supplies, which was a storefront, but it was also a wholesale business that served Durham and the surrounding area, and as far north as Danville, Virginia, and Richmond, and then some cities in South Carolina.

Samuel Scarborough  05:28

Okay.

Anita Scott Neville  05:28

Uh huh. And so on Saturdays, in particular, or holidays, school holidays, myself - and I only have one brother - and my brother, and at various times, all six of us-my parents, my father, and mother-raised and educated six children on an entrepreneur's salary. I did that, as well as the other school activities that you used to introduce me, and then went to school in Greensboro. I left Durham to go to Greensboro in 1972, and my first visit back home, and I have a picture of that, and that picture has been shared. My first visit back home when I went to Pettigrew Street, they had demolished the businesses on Pettigrew, and ironically, Turner's the storefront was still up, but the back side of the business had been destroyed. 

And so from that, my parents worked hard to conduct business from our home for as long as they could, but economically that didn't meet our needs. I always give my parents so many props because they educated six children. My mother's goal was that we would all have the opportunity to go to college, and we all did. And at one time, four of the six children were in out-of-state and private colleges. How they did that, I do not know, but I praise and laud them for their perseverance and just for their commitment to family.

Samuel Scarborough  07:42

Yes, ma'am. That- that's amazing. And the thing that resonates with me first of all is what you said about the connection between the Turner family and your own. It reminds me of how the Scarborough business was launched, but also what you said about Black ingenuity and the conditions in which your parents were moving and having to shuffle around with these racist policies that were being imposed, and were still creating opportunities not only for themselves but for their children and the children that they've brought into the family is amazing.

Anita Scott Neville  08:22

You, when you mention policy, it does bring to mind my- my parents were activists , also. However, they were very protective of us. I don't have the most, I guess controversial setting. I- it was in the night of the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. I was on a field trip, school field trip, to see the ice capades in Raleigh, and because of a lack of integration, we were up in the balcony, okay. And at some point, I'm not sure if it was intermission, but at some point, we could see the adults, like whispering to each other, and a pall came over them. And soon thereafter, before the show was over, we were called to go get back on the bus, and just told we have to go now. And you know, children, adult culture was different then. We didn't ask a lot of questions. 

When we got back to Durham, at the corner of Dillard and Main Street used to be the bus station, and that's where we pulled up to see armed guards there. And we were told about Dr. King's assassination, and we were told that the city was under curfew, and we must get in our cars and go directly home. That is the most, outside of my school experience, where literally a week didn't go by without the Black students demonstrating or protesting something, and that was the leadership roles that you alluded to when I share with people that I was the first Black cheerleader and first Black head cheerleader at that school, and the first Black to be named Miss Homecoming in the integrated school system. I wanted to be understood that that was politics and not personality, and it's not- it's  something that I share as a jewel in the crown of myself and my peers, who were adamant about taking our place in this new situation. We went from yes, schools were segregated, but we went from environments and school cultures where we were cared for, where our teachers knew our parents, where our teachers showed us care and went the extra mile. We went from that environment to a situation where our teachers and the new people that we met didn't look like us, and with very few exceptions, did not show us an inviting spirit. And so, committees, student council, privileges that the other students had that we didn't have, yes. 

We even protested in those days- the Afro was the style, and our male peers, especially, having Afro pics in their pockets and being suspended from school for having weapons, things like that we were faced with. As well as, at night, we would see live footage of the Vietnam War. We would either see footage of the Vietnam War or of Dr. King and others protesting in the South. So this overcame our spirits. Were we children? Were we young folks? Absolutely. But before we even processed what it meant to stay woke, we were woke, and we didn't let anything, we didn't take anything for granted, and we didn't allow others to take us for granted. 

Before the buildings were demolished on Pettigrew Street, subtle things happened, like businesses were broken into, and police would not either provide protection or investigation. Insurance companies would not provide insurance or withdrew or put stipulations on insurance policies. So before the actual demolition came, there was pressure for the Black business owners to get out of that space, and so watching my parents negotiate this, repair from it, and go right back the next day, it has had an impact. Even though, again, as a young person, I didn't know the impact then as I know it now. It had an impact on all six of us.

Samuel Scarborough  14:14

Yes, ma'am. And if it's not too touchy, in what ways has- has those experiences- not only the direct experiences of anti-Black racism in the school system, anti-Black racism in housing, zoning, property policy, as well as seeing the movements that were emerging and were thriving at the time of your upbringing- how those experiences impacted your outlook today and what you're involved with?

Anita Scott Neville  14:47

Well, I'll- I'll go back to your asking me how am I today? The privilege of being raised, parented by Joseph and Louise Scott is in my soul, and I know that because of my responses and my availability to serving others. And then it's affirmed by the variety of ways that I am able to serve others. Now, even though I grew up in the era of Black Power, fist- raising, dashiki-wearing - that is that- that is not the vehicle that's most effective today, and it does not render me soft. I am a restorative practitioner, and some tenets that guide a practitioner's relationship- building with others is always recognizing one that I am a member of a community. If I'm not by myself, I'm in community. So if things are going well in the community, what's my part? If harm is done in the community, what's my part? And recognizing the difference between control and authority. So, I am a restorative practitioner in my own skin, and I work to facilitate learning about the value of being restorative, but first, before you restore, you have to build.

Samuel Scarborough  16:52

Yes.

Anita Scott Neville  16:52

And so this mindset, coupled with my history and my upbringing, they- they are demonstrated in my advocacy activities today. Do I get frustrated? Am I challenged by, especially others who I expect certain things of, which I'm aware that's a personal setup, but it's it's I'm being for real. It's real. Does that challenge me? Yes, but I'm grateful to have the tools and to have the practice to be able to do the self-reflection that must be a part of a restorative mindset. And then again, to go- because it starts and ends here- to go back to, well, what's my part? Okay, maybe, maybe a civic leader is speaking ignorantly because I have not taken the time to meet with them, talk with them, write- write something to them. Is this something I can share with who I perceive to be unaware, unknowing? Because until I learn and know, I'm gonna resist the- I'm gonna resist the skintation, the skin inclination to judge and to label. It could be that you just don't know.

Samuel Scarborough  18:27

Yes ma'am, absolutely. And based off of what you just said before we talk more about your ongoing advocacy work, I'm interested to see now that you've developed, you've curated this lens of restorative practitioning and thinking about how communities have been constructed both here and in other places. Reflecting on your childhood, what were some pillar institutions in the Hayti community, or just Black Durham, more broadly that you remembered, and what elements, I guess, using those- the tenets of what you just described, how would you describe the level of community engagement, or just level of community like connection at that point? 

Anita Scott Neville  19:22

The first thing that comes to mind is Mechanics and Farmers Bank. I am the firstborn in my family and was not the only child, but more often with my father, and I can remember vividly being with my father, walking into Mechanics and Farmers Bank, asking to see Mr. Wheeler, John Wheeler, the late John Wheeler, who was then the president, being able to sit not all day, not having an appointment, and meet with Mr. Wheeler. And come out with a check. That was partnership that you can't find today, and partnership that had everything to do with the vitality of that business district, not only on Pettigrew Street, but primarily on Pettigrew Street, but all other entrepreneurs in Durham. And then I think about my church. In my church, I was fortunate because the Dillard family, Sam Dillard, the owner of Dillard's Barbecue, Theodore Spate... Okay, these were my deacons, and these were my neighbors. Elmo Walker, who was a big farmer in South Durham. Jethro Bradford, who had a like a like a store where you could come in and buy, you know, chips and candy, cigarettes...

Samuel Scarborough  21:14

Like a corner store?

Anita Scott Neville  21:15

Corner store, right. There were families led by men who were businessmen and who were also- could also be found downtown in City Hall when needed. So, besides just the strength of being a part of a church community, to have these icons and to be brought up by them. As a matter of fact, the- the church that I've had lifelong membership, the land was donated by the Spade family.

Samuel Scarborough  21:56

Wow!

Anita Scott Neville  21:56

Wow! Okay, and then beyond that I would have to say our teachers, because our teachers, we did- we didn't know it, but they were just a little more than a generation ahead of us. So they not only were educated, but they knew the value of opportunity. We had, in fact, a program called Project Opportunity, and- and the- the goal of that program was to expose us. I've- I've been to Luray Caverns. I think I was 14 years old. How many people do you? The caverns are still there. How many people do you know who've ever been to Luray Caverns? And but to take a busload of Black children to different places onto these hills, we would go to the mountains. To under these hills, we would go to Wilmington and the battleship and experience that again Project Opportunity. Now beyond that, when it came time to the academic support and all the other extracurricular activities that were available to us-that-that spoke. You know, you wanted to be a part of that, with very few exceptions. I work in the school system now, and one of the intangibles that we address or try to address all the time is students' sense of belonging. That was not my experience. Our experience. We belonged. We knew who we were and whose we were.

Samuel Scarborough  23:55

Yes, ma'am. And based off that description, before I ask questions about the policies that displace businesses, I'm interested to hear more about your perspective on school desegregation, or as was described in your biography, quote, "forced integration school system." I'm interested to learn more about your lived experience, your insight in working in education as well as being a student that was going through that transition process of the government enforcing Brown v. Board's ruling. What- what do you think has been the effect of those policies and how Black students today are seeing themselves in our school system here?

Anita Scott Neville  24:43

It in fact was called forced integration, that was not my term. Forced, because while the rest of the state, Chapel Hill in particular, had been integrated long before the 64- Durham did not. But, at some point, the state officials, because of the mandate from federal officials, says time to stop the madness. Now, what happened immediately was, and- and we know these institutions in a different light today, but charter schools were put up. Charter schools then were primarily formed and sponsored by white churches. They were a way to begin and promote white flight from integrated situations. The other thing on on the other on the other end to bring it up to your question about now, magnet schools were designed. Now, magnet schools were designed to address and promote integration to- to add color, if you will, to traditionally white schools, but then also to bring in more affluent students. I graduated from Jordan High School, and in the late- in this time of my high school, Hope Valley was the affluent section in Durham. We not- yes, there's affluence in Hope Valley now, but there's other areas.

Samuel Scarborough  26:35

I've seen the old money mansions there, and I've also read some of the racial covenants.

Anita Scott Neville  26:40

Yes, absolutely. For instance, when it was time to go to prom, well, let me step back. So, I went to when I was in high school, the head coach of Duke's basketball program was Vic Bubas. His daughter Vicky Bubas was my classmate.

Samuel Scarborough  27:02

Okay.

Anita Scott Neville  27:03

There was a car mogul here, Elkins, Elkins Chrysler. You may know this because Scarborough, the- the edifice was placed there at one time. His daughter Betsy Elkins was a classmate, so besides the affluence, there was status. The Dubose family is- has historic roots in the foundation of the UNC system. There, I think Anna's maybe a great granddaughter. Anna Dubose was a classmate. Okay, so when it was time to go to prom, a lot of my white classmates, you know, you know how you go to prom and your date picks you up, and maybe you go get a bite to eat or something before you actually go. Well, these kids were able to helicopter from Durham to the beach before prom, and then you know, and they...

Samuel Scarborough  27:04

Wow!

Anita Scott Neville  28:03

Yeah. So while, while, like as is typical in a lot of places, our Black students, boys, were being superlative in athletics and getting trophies for the school. Okay, so those incongruencies, because yeah, we wanted to claim our space, but the politics of it all, yeah. So today, there are charter schools that are created by all sorts of culturally- cultural groups with visions for developing good citizens, not just white people and not just white churches. Today, magnet programs are most effective when a parent is able to look at what's offered and say, "Oh, this school, my child is interested in music, and as is true where I work, they have a professional sound studio there. I want my child to go here. So the motive, the institutions are there, but the motivations for making those choices are not simply rooted in race.

Samuel Scarborough  29:46

Yes ma'am. What would you say they're rooted in now?

Anita Scott Neville  29:48

They're they're rooted in what has always been a parent's desire, and that is to have the best opportunity for their students. Now, anywhere you go, I mean, race is. Okay, and the generations where race was the primary thing has not died out. So, whether it's their it won't be their children it might be their grandchildren that they're influencing, and that they're influencing their their children to make sure that their grandchildren either don't or won't mix. You can find that, okay, but for the most part, the motivation has to do is pure. That is, parents want the best for their children.

Samuel Scarborough  30:48

Yes, ma'am. In thinking about that specifically, the idea of the the grandparents that were raised in that culture and are also influencing their grandchildren, I'm interested to shift towards some of the policies that led to displacement here in Hayti, and think about the grandparent, if you will, institution of urban renewal, or as James Walland famously put it, Negro removal, and then the kind of grandchild in this current day struggle that you all are waged in with Hayti Reborn. Walk me through some of the things that you've seen change in the Hayti community over your time, both living around the area, as well as working.

Anita Scott Neville  31:38

Well, while I don't have statutes and policy numbers available, what I can let you know is that while Black leadership was working to work with the majority to identify benefits for our community. What was happening on a subtle and destructive basis was a disjoining of our intimate- intimate community and thereby dissipation of trust, specifically with the freeway, and yes, Negro removal, but I call it urban removal. To date, there has not been a renewal. There has not been a fulfillment of the promises that were made that motivated Black leaders to encourage the Black community to work with the state government. We were told that this expressway would benefit Black businesses. We were told that for whatever was destroyed, they would rebuild it. What was immediately rebuilt was something called "Tin City," which remnants of it stand today, and it was literally what-

Samuel Scarborough  33:10

What it is today.

Anita Scott Neville  33:26

What it- tin...

Samuel Scarborough  33:31

Right off of Old Fayetteville.

Anita Scott Neville  33:32

Old Fayetteville behind the Hayti Heritage Center.

Samuel Scarborough  33:35

I know exactly what you're talking about.

Anita Scott Neville  33:36

Uh huh, and then but- but most current, most specifically, the Hayti Heritage Center was developed as a concession for a location for Black businesses to be built. Now, what- what was housed there was not replacement of what was lost on Pettigrew Street. Even the development of the business island on each side of Fayetteville Street, known as Phoenix Square, those the Durham business and professional chain, which- which is Black-led, had a lot to do with the development of that. However, it is a multicultural place where there are business operators. As far as I know, the- the land is owned by Black business, a Black business family, but there are there are different cultures and ethnicities that conduct business within Phoenix Square. 

But, to go back to Heritage Square, that was laid out for the Black community, but along with gentrification comes disinvestment. And while the community is trying to heal and rebuild trust, unfortunately, while the city was watching Heritage Square deteriorate, we also were not being the stewards over that land that we maybe could have been. Maybe not today, but definitely between the late '60s, early '70s, and up to recently, there- the Black community here has money. Historically, has money, but money doesn't fix everything, and so the harm that was done with the erection of the freeway and the separation of the Hayti community on each side of the freeway, and the demolition not only of homes but our oldest Black church was White Rock was demolished and had to be replaced

Samuel Scarborough  33:37

All the way down.

Anita Scott Neville  33:37

All the way down. Still on Fayetteville Street, still on in what's considered Black community. It's right there adjacent to the quote Black cemetery, and down the street was where Dillard's Barbecue was housed. So, and then closer to on the other side, the chicken

Samuel Scarborough  34:49

Chicken Hut.

Anita Scott Neville  34:49

Chicken Hut, which growing up it was known as "The Chicken Box" for me. But yeah, but so again, you know, we can find pockets, and we're talking about entrepreneurs, but families were behind these entrepreneurs, and so that type of liberty for some was new and didn't have the tools or the depth of experience to hold on. Okay, now. Again, without having policy and numbers and mandates, a loss of trust in a community is what we still grapple with today.

Samuel Scarborough  37:37

Yes ma'am.

Anita Scott Neville  37:39

I have worked to advocate for the preservation, first of all, of Hayti, and then the redevelopment, the revitalization. Yes, there has been pushback by a certain, by certain members of the community, but again the threat of the language that has been used against us-that some have not stayed woke enough to understand that they're parroting what's being said and not representing what really is for us, and that and that's challenging. I can't. You can't touch it. You can't put it in a bag, or you- you can't wrap it up. But it is vibrant in the community, and so if I hopefully, if I've addressed what you're asking, I think the- and there are still members of the community that, if you engage them in conversation, would call the names of certain leaders and blame them, for- I choose not to. I choose to believe that they made decisions and they advocated for those decisions from a right-spirited heart, because again, the promises that the state government did make, it made sense. Okay, and the tradition of us not trusting "the Man," that makes sense too. But, at- at some time, discernment has to come into play, and out of that, trust needs to be built. But it takes- it takes bravery to develop a safe space where trust can- can live.

Samuel Scarborough  39:57

Absolutely, and before- very profound. And before I ask you about the current, like the very imminent struggle, the policy that you all been involved with for Hayti Reborn, I'm interested to pick your brain and learn, based off of your experience, your insight, and what you just covered... What do you think should be the role of Black entrepreneurs and longtime or legacy homeowners in Hayti? Look, I'll say this from personal experience. I drove by 1406 Fayetteville on the way here. It pains me every time I drive by that residence to see it being deteriorated, to know that I'm not going to get there, but to know that the property is not being maintained.

Anita Scott Neville  40:45

Yeah. I- again, with with the strengthening of trust, a coalition should be built where like-minded visionaries come together to one thrive and maintain their own entrepreneurial interests, but with that thread of community partnership, you're here. I'm going not to pick on you, but it pains me too. And just so you know, I have researched and have made proposals for different things. I could see that [1406 Fayetteville] being a beautiful museum.

Samuel Scarborough  41:35

I agree with you.

Anita Scott Neville  41:36

I could see it. I could see it being a beautiful bed and breakfast. But first of all, what we need to make available is the ability to maintain and restore mansions like that. There are other- there are other historic spaces along the corridor where that must happen. There are fewer where that has already happened, and- and we're proud of that. But you're younger than me. I remember Fayetteville Street in its heyday, and when- okay, I don't know if you're familiar with the area, Emorywoods, but Emorywoods when it was-

Samuel Scarborough  42:28

That's where my father grew up.

Anita Scott Neville  42:32

Okay, and it was- it was seen as it was the counterpart to Blacks that Hope Valley was for whites, okay. On Fayetteville Street, however, and I don't know if affluence is not the right word, but the word was pride, the word was dignity, and the word was community. We traveled through there freely. We traveled through there gladly, because the images and the people who owned, who moving around, moving through, they were right-doing, right-thinking, and you didn't want anything but good for them, because what they had and were representing was good for us, and it is-it's very painful, the condition of the corridor. And, also, to know that you can't take for granted who owns what anymore, and understanding- understanding the challenges of your generation trying to manage decisions or remnants of victories from your forefathers, and same with me and my generation, it's- it's no different. But again, we're not I guess- I guess the antebellum slavery mentality did not question that. If your parents were fortunate enough to own their own farm, to own their own home, you knew without a doubt what your move was. The more things change, the more things stay the same sometimes. So, we have members of our family who have money, but have made different choices. We have members of our family who even choose not to live here anymore, much less to invest in what was. That's not an indictment. That's just a fact, and it's hard to those are- those are intangible challenges that when people drive down Fayetteville Street on their way to NCCU and they're looking and you know, "I thought this was?" Okay, yeah, but there are invisible challenges that are the reason you see what you see. 

So, Hayti Reborn, Hayti Promise, other advocacy groups, the Grant Street community. This is- this is the work that we are trying to do today. Will things look differently, even at the Hayti Heritage Center? Yes, but we don't want things to be unrecognizable, and we don't want the difference to erase the legacy of our community. And so that- that's the challenge. And developers, you know, they have their own language, and their own pressure-instilling mindset, and sometimes in frustration, those of us who just want something to be done go that way.

Samuel Scarborough  46:16

Yes ma'am. Wow. And I think circling towards Hayti Reborn, walk me through the process of- I know you, Dr. McKoy, have been very instrumental in stewarding that organization. Walk me through how the organization was developed, what you all are currently involved with, and how people can get involved.

Anita Scott Neville  46:38

During COVID, Dr. McKoy developed the Durham Global Equity Project. The goal was to develop a plan for the corridor that would link housing, business, North Carolina Central, the churches, and provide learning as learning opportunities as well as employment opportunities as well as business opportunities, and in doing so, create a model for other communities, because in fact, what's happening in Hayti, unfortunately, is happening in so many other parts of our country, and so that was- that was the mission. And we went a long way. And then, as we came out of COVID, the Durham Housing Authority made the city aware of what they needed to do, because that- it's over- that land is overseen by the Housing Authority, which is federal. So they have federal- they had a federal mandate for that portion of the corridor to replace that area with the same number of housing units as was destroyed. So they put out an RFP, and we submitted, and we were told, and we, and it was declined. We were told that we didn't have the the depth of knowledge nor the financing to make that happen. And I want to fast forward to President Biden picking Henry McKoy to lead an entity, a new department in the federal government that did just that- that work.

Samuel Scarborough  48:50

It sounds like expertise to me.

Anita Scott Neville  48:52

It sounds like- it looks like expertise that we tried to do here in Durham. So, we were denied, and we were ignited to action, and so it was Hayti Reborn grew from that. The then-mayor Elaine O'Neal pledged to do something for Hayti, and so Hayti Reborn worked to develop strategies and identify the right stakeholders who might give life to those strategies. And we- we were able to do that and begin what is what is my focus now coalition-building. Because, while we talk about Hayti, and we say Black community almost in the same- the Hayti community, and its vitality, does nothing but serve Durham as a whole. And I'm proud of the coalition that has been built, and so from that time until early in, I think it was June of 24, when we read the paper one morning that the Hayti Heritage Square had been purchased by a Chicago developer. Now that doesn't- that happens with some aiding and abetting, but as woke as we were, we didn't know that was happening. And others that we checked with didn't know it was happening. 

So immediately, Hayti Reborn, they did a little bit of research. Hayti Reborn was the first group that they chose to come to, and you know, court us about how they wanted to work with us, and how they wanted to preserve, and they didn't want to erase. Okay, so that happened. And then, the next thing was this proposal to rezone. Rezoning why? Because their vision would have, in a- in one stroke, been an erasure of the community, because of the position of the Heritage Square to the- the proximity of Heritage Square to downtown Durham. You visually, as well as the quote business that they propose, which is still obscure, you- you couldn't tell the difference. If they were or are ever allowed to make, manifest their vision, think about the- the location of the Heritage Square Center. Think about the expressway. Individuals can come from Research Triangle Park or from Duke on the other end, take the exit, swoop down into Heritage Square, not spend $1 or a care in the Hayti community, leave and get right back on the expressway, and never really invest in the community. 

That if- if it happens the way Sterling Bay proposes, that will, I won't say be the beginning of the end because the- the- the threat of the end is- has been in the air for a long time, but if that comes to- comes to pass, that'll be a sad day. So, what we're doing is staying woke in our planning and in our preparation to be prepared when Sterling Bay returns, to strengthen our community benefits agreement proposal so that it matters, and to in the interest of- in the interest of protection, I won't be so detailed right now, but just to assure you that we're not holding our hands, just waiting to see the next move that Sterling Bay will make. And we have national attention. We are approached, and our community has been used as a model for, most recently, the Compassion Challenge, which was an activity funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. That's one of the richest philanthropists in the country. Okay, and the charge of those who participated in the Compassion Challenge was members of HBCU graduate programs to develop strategies and plans for development and improved livability in communities like Hayti, without it resulting in gentrification or displacement, and Hayti was chosen as the model community, and in fact they had their final competition here at- in Hayti.

Samuel Scarborough  55:02

Wow.

Anita Scott Neville  55:03

So that's just an example. That's just one example, but our coalition spreads outside of Durham. And, in fact, outside of North Carolina.

Samuel Scarborough  55:16

Yes, ma'am. That is great to hear. And I know I might be overstepping as the interviewer in making this conclusion, but what you described- that whole interaction between Sterling Bay and the courting process and the switch up of plans that they engaged in, it does not sound dissimilar from what you just described earlier with the initial displacement of 147.

Anita Scott Neville  55:41

Exactly.

Samuel Scarborough  55:42

It also doesn't sound dissimilar from the many instances of colonialism that have existed across the world.

Anita Scott Neville  55:48

It's a replay.

Samuel Scarborough  55:49

Yes, ma'am.

Anita Scott Neville  55:50

And it- and it's a replay without investment in anything but self. Sterling Bay is out of Chicago, and I'll just invite you to research their record, and they're replicating some ill, some some disease for the communities and the citizens that they find themselves in.

Samuel Scarborough  56:28

Yes, ma'am, that's very profound. And I think this segues into some of my parting questions. First of all, I want to ask. I kind of alluded to this earlier... When you think about the future of Hayti, what do you hope decision-makers and the broader community understand about the legacy of this place, and what do you want my generation of young people to bring with us when we're carrying the torch that you all are actively passing to us?

Anita Scott Neville  57:00

As a matter of fact, thank you for coupling that. Because as a matter of fact, I believe that's where the strength of demonstrating the value of Hayti's legacy will come from. I am working on- it's- it's my desire to even have a course, an elective course at Central that all students must take before they leave. Why? Because I've learned I- I present in the law school like twice a year on restorative justice, and I've learned that in yeah, it's egregious that law school students who are getting ready to graduate don't even know about the Hayti Heritage Center. Have never walked or been down the Fayetteville Street, and they don't know the history. And that is, we can't have that. 

And so, with education and with awareness will come the proper consciousness for young people to understand that if the preservation of Hayti is not successful, how that bleeds over into minimizing possibilities for them, and it does, and- and they can't run from that. Because, okay, you'll graduate from Central and you'll go back to Atlanta or Cleveland or Los Angeles, but guess what? You're gonna see and hear echoes of Hayti wherever you go, and so I believe the strength of demonstrating and educating individuals, as well as our youth, comes with that education. But by the same token, our municipal leadership, I believe, is at the crossroads of a great opportunity to support the preservation and restoration of Hayti, and then- and then lend voice to how that supports the ongoing of Durham as a whole, not just for the Black community. If you- if you ride around, we're still- it is still a Black community in spirit, but you have to be careful of what time of day, and if you're not from here, you may go through and not realize that you're in a Black community. And just as there is a Duke community, and there is Hope Valley, and there is a what's the one with the horse way out?

Samuel Scarborough  1:00:18

I know what you're talking about.

Anita Scott Neville  1:00:21

Yeah, there's- there's value- there is value in supporting identity as long as, and along with, receiving the contributions of those who identify with that community. There's nothing wrong with that.

Samuel Scarborough  1:00:41

Absolutely, and I guess as a parting question, this feeds directly into it. When you think of Hayti, when you think of this community, what does it mean to you?

Anita Scott Neville  1:00:53

It means love. And- and in a literally romantic way, because the essence of love, and the demonstration of love, is of caring and serving. And when that is a part of your experience, as it has been for me, living and knowing others who live in Hayti, it's about love. I grew up looking in the faces of people who wanted for me the same thing they wanted for themselves. Yeah, and that's love.

Samuel Scarborough  1:01:45

That's profound, and that is a good word to end this conversation on. Thank you so much for your time today, Ms. Anita Scott Neville. It's an honor to be in your presence. It's an honor to learn from your experience, your knowledge, and my hope is that this conversation will inspire more young people like myself, as well as those of different ages who might be disengaged right now, to get in the movement, to become involved, and to stay woke.

Anita Scott Neville  1:02:12

Yes, yes. Thank you.

Samuel Scarborough  1:02:14

Absolutely.