Forte-Brown, Minnie

Name of Interviewee: Minnie Forte-Brown

Name of Interviewer: Samuel Scarborough

Date of Interview: July 1, 2026

Location of Interview: Durham, North Carolina

Samuel Scarborough  0:00  

I'm gonna go ahead and start, and before we even do, like, the preface for the conversation, I want to keep the natural conversation flowing, because I think it's important to keep that in. But yes, I agree, like, the Carolina Times speaks to the importance of local Black journalism. One of the things that I'm strongly considering for my honors thesis project is doing research on Durham civil rights history, and when I looked at the 1960 sit-ins here, and even the Royal Ice Cream sit-in in '57 I could not find many sources in the Herald Sun or the Morning Herald at the time it was called, but I could find sources and plenty of pictures in the Carolina Times,

Minnie Forte-Brown  0:41  

Because that wasn't- that wasn't their focus. The Herald Sun wasn't focused on them. We have to know who is for you and who's going to tell your story, and if you think that white folks are going to tell your story... 90% of the time you're wrong, because I'm going to tell it from my vantage point, and my eyes are going to certainly be different from how you see. You see that the young man was disrespectful, and he needed to be shot; I view the young man as speaking up and answering your question. You saw that as disrespecting, so you shot him; I see the young man is reaching for his license. You see, the young man is possibly reaching for a gun. Ao I mean, you know, so we talk about different perspectives when you - go, go, go sit down - you, you can jail somebody, you can give them life and keep them in jail for 30 years, and then say, "Oh, I'm sorry, we could've been wrong" and think that "Imma come out whole." So the things that white folks have done that they consider is just...

Samuel Scarborough  0:41  

Yes ma'am heard and affirmed. I think of the story of, I was able to meet Brother Ed Chapman. He was on death row for a long time for a crime he did not commit in the state of North Carolina, and in a presentation with the North Carolina Coalition for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, they showed a film where it had many other stories like Ed's, and talked about the legacy of the modern death penalty in many cases being used against African Americans in a similar way as lynchings were carried out, and that many of the people who were victims of assault that were African American, their perpetrators, not only did not receive the same level of punishment, but sometimes they were also just not prosecuted at all.

Minnie Forte-Brown  3:09  

"What you deserved." "Oh no, it's still you. Let's give him some community service." "Let's.. oh, let's just dismiss it totally." I mean, so the horrors, you know, when you - and your a history major - that has to be unsettling. It has to be for your skin, you know, just says, "How could, how could you be so inhumane?" The things that they did to women, so, right now, Black women don't receive the same treatment that white women receive. They, they're, they're disrespected. They're.. it's like when I say I'm having pain, that's disregarded. "Oh, well, now you sure that it's.. are you sure that it's pain, is it?" Yeah, I'm having pain, and so you don't get the same kind of respect. So we talk about that. Yeah, that's that's in 2000. This is this is in 2026 We're still, we're still dealing with it.

Samuel Scarborough  4:17  

Yes ma'am. And it's a shame. I know it's Black Maternal Health week this week, if I remember correctly, I saw Governor Josh Stein, as well as one of my mentors and good colleagues, Senator Natalie Murdock, who's been leading the charge on that, on the, at least on the local and state level,

Minnie Forte-Brown  4:38  

Black Women's Health, yes. So we still fight- the fight's not over, and we still fight. And I got a T-shirt that says "We fight back."

Samuel Scarborough  4:50  

Yes ma'am. That's admirable. Well, let me go ahead and do the formal introduction.

Minnie Forte-Brown  4:58  

Okay,

Samuel Scarborough  4:58  

Today we're recording an oral history with Mrs. Minnie Forte Brown, a longtime leader in Durham's Hayti community. Just as a part of your introduction, I want to begin talking a little bit about your resume. We were able to do some background research and found that you are a Durham Hayti narrative, a native, excuse me, who grew up during Jim Crow segregation, became a longtime public servant, serving on the Durham Public Schools Board of Education for 16 years. You earned a bachelor's degree in Speech & English from St. Aug [Saint Augustine's University] and a master's degree in Speech Pathology & Audiology from North Carolina Central University. You've taught at NCCU's English and Mass Communication departments until your retirement in 2011 and have shifted into an adjunct faculty position. And then you also have served as president of the North Carolina School Board Association. You served as chair of the National School Board Association's Council of Urban Board of Education. You were vice president of KIPP ENC, and you were a founding board member of the East Durham Children's Initiative, now known as the Durham Children's Initiative. 

Also, we wanted to note that you have been appointed to serve on numerous statewide boards, including but not limited to, the North Carolina Gang Advisory Task Force, as well as the North Carolina Council of the Status of Women. And you are also a recipient of the heralded Order of the Longleaf Pine, the highest honor for any individual in the state of North Carolina. 

It is an honor to sit down with you today, and I wanted to also say that this interview is part of a project to document personal experiences, community history, and the role of different community members, especially Black women, in shaping Hayti or the Fayetteville Street corridor over time, and there are no right or wrong answers, so please share only what you feel comfortable and moved to discuss, and we're especially interested in hearing and learning about your memories, your perspectives, and hopes for the future of Hayti. 

And so I think kind of leading into this, we've already kind of established that you are a Hayti native... I want to learn more about what brought your family to Hayti. How long has your family been her? And are they originally from this area?

Minnie Forte-Brown  7:31  

Well, my grandmother was an orphan. And the people that took her, found her, cared for her, came from Stonewall, New Bern, and moved to Durham. So, thus she was here. But she made her way, and she only went to the third grade. But she made her way- where you see the fire station at NCCU, the police department - well, it used to be the fire station, I said fire station- that was our first Black fire station, fire station #4 was so epic. But it became the NCCU police department. That's where her house sat. My grandmother was a, like, I said, only finished the third grade, but the most brilliant woman. This is an entrepreneur. She bought all of the land down on the Cook Road - she owned all of that. Where St. Joseph sits right now, that was her land- she was amazing. How she did it, we don't know. But, so my mother was raised- my grandmother had three children, well she had four, but the youngest child burnt in the fire. He was playing with matches, so she had three children, two girls and one boy. She, my mother, was thought of as the smartest one, so she concentrated on books. My aunt was considered- just beautiful, she moved to Connecticut to do her thing. And my uncle went to Morgan State, and got a scholarship from Hillside to go for Morgan State when he was playing football at Hillside- and he moved to the DC area. 

So, my mother stayed here. She met my father, and my grandmother said, "This is who you will marry, and this is where you'll buy property." So, my grandmother was the matriarch, and she told people what to do. So, where you see that brand new house that's right there on Dupree Street, that was the first property that we owned. My grandmother told my mother to buy that, so she and my father bought that property. And she said, and buy the adjoining lots, so our lots run together down here on Merrick Street. So she, they followed orders. She told him to build this house. They did this, so in 1951 this house was built, and we've been here since then. The, we, I was born in a place up there on on Dupree Street, but we've always lived in this area. My grandmother told me, "I'm gonna go back to school," get her PhD, get a master's PhD- she did that. She was one of the first five to receive a doctorate at North Carolina College. People, the white professors at UNC, came to NC, it was North Carolina College then, to teach them, because you couldn't go

Samuel Scarborough  10:44  

to Carolina,

Minnie Forte-Brown  10:45  

to Carolina, but they taught them, and they, and she received her doctorate in 1960. So it was all in the books, first, the first, first five in the state of North Carolina. Okay, so Dr. Minnie T. Forte, so she pushed us all. My father only finished high school, and he was the most loving man and father, and so that's how I know what a man should be. He knew how to do everything- anything that happened in the house, except for electrical things. He knew how to fix it.

Samuel Scarborough  11:18  

Wow!

Minnie Forte-Brown  11:19  

And so- just smart. From Sampson County- so that's where our people come from. The Forte's come from Sampson County. My grandmother met this guy- the story says he was from Barbados or someplace, he was an orange picker and came up to North Carolina where they were at Sampson County, where they were were priming tobacco, they had tobacco fields, and worked in tobacco. [He] met my grandmother, she had three babies born, and then he left. So we know nothing about [him], except our name. And we'll do that. 

Alright, so growing up, I went to NCCU's Nursery School. I knew that I was smart because my mother told me that, and I didn't want to be a teacher. She allowed me to go to Morgan State- I went to Hillside. I mean, I had the most wonderful life, most wonderful life. My father died in that kitchen when I was 14. And so [when] I grew up, my brothers were my father figures. And I was smart. I knew it. I went to Morgan State. I did well, got pregnant, had a baby. My mother said, "Now you come back home." And so I came back home, and I didn't want to be a teacher. I wanted to be, in, on television. I wanted to do mass comm, I wanted to do something like that. Mother said you'll be a teacher because you're gonna, you can do that right now, and you will make money, and you'll always have a job. So, I became a teacher. The best decision I could make or have had. I taught in Baltimore at a gang school for two years. I probably would have stayed there had we not had a strike. [The] Baltimore Teachers Association had a strike, and that meant- I'm a country girl, so I didn't know that that meant you could not cross the line, because we have a teachers' union, and that means if you cross the line, then you're considered a scab. And, so I sold out. Yeah, I've been in a 'right to work' state, I don't know anything about that. I need- so, I came back home- me and my daughter- came back home, and I enrolled in grad school. [I] got my master's in Speech Pathology, Audiology, and did something, and worked for UNC. UNC had, they were doing the project: Sesame Street.

Samuel Scarborough  14:02  

Wow!

Minnie Forte-Brown  14:03  

And I had the opportunity to interview families to talk about what this was going to be. The beginning of Sesame Street- it was the best thing ever. So, I had to go door to door and talk to parents that had small children to talk about what this was going to be, a learning opportunity that UNC was bringing, it was going to be work, and I said, "Oh my god!" So that's what I did, and they paid me, but that was interesting, because I'm in the community, so I'm going door to door, you know, people don't sometimes, you, you don't have money to send your children to school. But Sesame Street was school, and it was sitting in front of the television, and you're gonna learn, you're gonna learn so many things- you're gonna learn how to be kind to each other, you're gonna learn your alphabets, you're gonna learn, you're gonna learn how to read, your- Sesame Street was, it was, and still is, entertainment. It wasn't like Mickey Mouse, and stuff like that, this is- this was actual learning. So, anyway, that's what I did. I worked with that, and then I said I'm going to have to leave here. My mother got a Phelps Stoke scholarship to go and study the Benin in West Africa. So she didn't want to go by herself, she said, "Come and go with me. I said, "I'm gay." So I went, and for eight weeks we were in Ghana, Dahomey, Nigeria, and Togo.

Samuel Scarborough  14:03  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  14:03  

So I met my husband there, and he was from Seattle. His mother was a nurse, a Peace Corps nurse, and she had a restaurant called "Edith's Inn," and that's where all the Peace Corps people who were working in those parts of Africa, West Africa, came. So I met him, married him, and he came back to the states. And we moved to Seattle.

Samuel Scarborough  14:15  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  14:15  

That was a different experience. I worked for the Seattle Public Schools.

Samuel Scarborough  14:15  

Ok.

Minnie Forte-Brown  14:15  

It was interesting. I had never been to the Pacific Northwest, and the Black people were coming from Texas and Louisiana up to Seattle. But there was no Blackness there. There was no, no rooted, rootedness in who you are, so the Black people were trying to go with Mexicans, so they could have pretty babies. Ok. What they thought was crazy. So, I got a job at Seattle Community College, and that lasted for a little bit. I said, "I'm not teaching, I'm not doing anything that I want to do." So I said, "I have to keep looking." So Seattle Public Schools had an opening in their desegregation department.

Samuel Scarborough  16:25  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  16:27  

And what they hired me to be [was] the Black voice. They had, Hispanic, Japanese, Mexican, white, and Black- five of us.

Samuel Scarborough  16:48  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  16:48  

And we had to teach multicultural communication, multi-ethnic communication to everybody in the Seattle public schools- students and faculty. You know, what I liked about it was they didn't just teach the kids, you had to teach the teachers as well, because you don't know. And that's when the first time I heard Miss Jane, what is her name? I can't remember. She's the one that teaches, she teaches white children what it is to be Black,

Samuel Scarborough  16:48  

I know who you're talking about.

Minnie Forte-Brown  16:48  

Exactly! So we showed that film, it was the most impressive that- we opened up with that. How do you see yourself if you were Black? And I can't tell you how it feels to be Black, so I can only do your eyes. So we're separate you by the brown eyes and the blue eyes. And the blue eyed children had all, they were the first in line to go to lunch, they were the first to do, they got, you know, they were complimented when they read well, the brown-eyed children were as Black children. They got disrespected, they had to go in the back of the line, the last ones to get lunch. When they had their reading roots, they weren't complimented (if they read well). You know, "you all, you all can't read." You know, so, that's how they learned. Of course, you know, she was criticized immensely for that, because that was a training. We should still use it. It's like the Ken Clark, Kenneth Clark, and the Black, you know, Black doll and white doll, you know, see those things that are tangible, many times we can't stand and look at that because they're truth telling. Who is the who's the prettier doll? It's always the white doll, even though they're the same doll.

Samuel Scarborough  16:48  

Exactly.

Minnie Forte-Brown  15:39  

It's the color of your skin. And so, those things- many times white people, they start crying. They would say, "Oh!" But we did it for every school in the Seattle Public Schools. And then we took our show on the road and went to Bainbridge Island, and we taught over there. So that was- that gave me a sense of self, and a- I already knew that I was smart and that I could could teach, but it gave me a different focus. I mean, it was. It strengthened me. It strengthened me. 

And so, I came back home after I divorced him. I came back home. And of course, I always go to North Carolina Central University, and I got my job back, and I stayed there public speaking, because to be able to speak your truth and encouraging Black children who have sometimes they've been in environments where their voices are not heard. They're muted. And to instill in them that you have something to say that is of value. I want to hear it, and others want to hear it. And you're going to do it, and you're going to do it well. To put that in them, to make them stand in front of an audience and speak, not copy some shit out of, you know, some book. You know, you're going to speak. What is it you want to tell us? What is it you have inside of you that you like to share with us? What book have you read that you want to tell us about? What- so we're going to pick something [up] from you. So, making kids feel that I can stand there for three minutes and speak. You can still have notes, you can't read it, but you can have notes. Best part of my life. I'm going to say close to 40 years. And I've been, I've been, fortunate enough for people to have seen the talent that I have set the- turn the flame up. The flame has already been there. It just has not, it's always- I just helped to ignite it and make it brighter, and let them know that they're so bright. My kids have done extremely well! I'm so proud of every child that I've taught, because they're doing well. They're teachers, they're PhDs, they're doing lawyers, they're doctors, they're doing all kinds of things, they're professors in their own right. And, and I am just so proud to have had that experience. 

So, how do I get to a school board? I was walking home from class, and Dr. Lavonia Allison and Dr. Regina, yes, and Dr. Regina Joy Bowden were coming down the street, and said, "Minnie, we need to talk to you." I said, "Ok." And so I said, "Well, just drive around the corner and park, and come on in the house. So they came and they sat right there. And I was sitting over here. And they said, "We want you to run for school board." I said, "No, I'm never.. my life is free. I go where I want, do what I want. I don't want to be in politics. Never thought about it." I got interested in it, and they said "Michael Page is not doing what we think he should be doing for the African American community." I said, "Well, you know, I think he's doing a fine job." I said, "I don't have any problems with him." So, they said, "Well, would you consider it?" I said, "Well, what I'll do is I'll pray about it. And God will direct me." I prayed, Michael called me, and said, "Minnie, me and my wife are building a home in another part of Durham, which will take me out of this community." I said, "Ok."

Samuel Scarborough  23:44  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  23:45  

I said, "Then I can consider it." The guy that said that. He said, "Michael, they did their thing, and that was fine." Because I wasn't running against Michael Page. It, I mean, it was that, that wasn't in my spirit. I did think he was doing a fine job. That was personal, that was something. So, anyway, I ran, and I had 70, I think 72% of the vote. That was good, very good. So I never... only.. I only, my only people on my team were my family, my brother, my girlfriends... Surrounded by people that I knew I could trust. And my mentor was William Burroughs and Deborah Long Burroughs. She married him, and I won by 72%, I believe.

Samuel Scarborough  24:38  

Wow! That is incredible.

Minnie Forte-Brown  24:41  

And I never had any other opposition for the four years I was on board. It was, I never had anybody.

Samuel Scarborough  24:49  

And that speaks volumes.

Minnie Forte-Brown  24:51  

It speaks volumes.

Samuel Scarborough  24:51  

Volumes.

Minnie Forte-Brown  24:52  

Because, my thing is now if you're going to do it, you got to do it. You got to stand in the fire. It wasn't easy. My people that were most against me were the people in Pact One. Jackie Wagstaff. I don't know, somehow I think Jackie thought that when I was going to, when I got on the school board, I was just going to rubber stamp what she, what she was down, and that wasn't- no, no. Because I'm on the board of education, so it says education. So it's not about, you know, what you may think. As long as the children are going to be taught, and they're going to be taught well. They're going to have the skill sets, they're going to have people in the classroom that are actually doing things, and, and, and moving the needle. If the needle's not moving to the right, then we're not doing what we're supposed to do. So, anything that's going to help move the needle to the right, that's going to elevate Black children, this is where I'm going for. Okay. So, yeah. So, all that fussing and fighting and that kind of stuff, that wasn't what I was about. I'm about what's happening in the classroom. What's happening with our people who are classified workers? Are you paying them well? Are the people that are working in the cafeteria, people who are doing your landscaping, are we are we making sure that they get paid? Let's, that's what we are here for.

Samuel Scarborough  26:22  

Exactly.

Minnie Forte-Brown  26:23  

Not whether I like you, and I don't know you, right? I never knew you. You're not my girlfriend. I'm not. I got my friends. I'm not up here to make friends. My friends are who they are. I'm up here because this is a job, and we've got to do it well. And so, that's how I approach things. I never had a whole lot of friends at NCCU. I'm up here to do a job. My friends are my friends. We, we doing things that we want to do, not because- I'm going to be cordial, we're going to be respectful for each other, we're going to, we're going to have good times, or whatever, but we ain't buddy buddy. I'm not- just my friends are people that I love, that I keep close. So when I go into a situation where we're working, that's what we're doing, we're working, and to an end, to achieve an end. The needle has to move to the right, and if your children can't read, what do we do to ensure that they are better, that they're better readers? If the teachers tell you that they need something that's going to increase the likelihood of the children moving back, that's fine. How do we move the bottom up? Why are children getting suspended from school? Is it only Black boys getting suspended from school? Are they the only ones that are acting up? Come on, something's wrong with that. 

So the Office of Civil Rights came down. I'm with you. I'm with you. Let's look at what these principals are doing. Do you see a little Black boy? He's playing in the hall, and you can't just tell him stop playing in the hall. You got to put him in suspension. But- so, he misses those classes? That doesn't make sense. You're the principal, you don't have to punish him for horse playing, and that was- those were the kinds of things that we did, that I said, "Okay, we're not gonna do that." You're suspending him because of what? He smells like weed. Okay? He told you that his mama smokes weed. She brings him to school. He's in the car. He's smelling like- does he have weed on him? He doesn't, he doesn't have weed on him. Just- ask him to go to the bathroom, rub some, some soap on his arms, or whatever, try to get that smell out, and go to class. Why are you, why are you suspending him? That doesn't make sense. Does he have weed on his person? Is he bringing it? If he doesn't, he, the smell of marijuana- we were suspending kids for so many stupid things. And it, you know, those- so those were the things, we have to change this. We have to change this. And so, being on the school board, after I got my footing- like I said, I was silent until I learned what it was- I'm not, just because we're Black, I'm not, I'm not just gonna get down with y'all if it don't make sense.

Samuel Scarborough  29:05  

All skillful ain't kinfolk.

Minnie Forte-Brown  29:09  

And if, if you're being disrespectful to those people that look like me, I can't get down with that. I can't get down with that. So, anyway, my time on the school board was great. It took me to places that I never envisioned. My first national school board association- which I didn't understand why we weren't going to learn stuff. I mean, you think you can just, you know, everything here and Durham? There are people that are doing other things. We got a $400,000 scholarship when I was chair of the school board from the Broad Foundation to study in a cohort, so. People from, they were from Texas, Aldine, Texas, Rhode Island, Philadelphia, and Durham. That was our cohort. We traveled around the nation to see what, because Eli Broad said he believed that we could take urban schools and make them better. So that's what we did. And we were lucky enough to get that. Thank you, Jesus. So we did that. I mean, we went everywhere, and we learned stuff. 

My board, we were smart, we wrote a theory of action that talked about where our boys should be, how you move the needle. We're looking at schools that, that were minority, so-called minority, minority-majority driven, but they had the, the lowest reading scores, or, or whatever. How do you, how do you move that? And we saw people that were doing it. [That] were doing it in, in, in, in Texas; that were doing it in Minnesota; that were doing it in Ohio; that were doing it in New York. How do you get that? You can copy anything, but how do you do that? How do you create a mindset? And so, you have to have a theory of action. "This is how we're going to do this." So we created that. I feel so good about the things that we did when we're on the school board. When we hired a new superintendent, when they fired him for spending $11 using a card to spend...

Samuel Scarborough  31:44  

And this was before Dr. Mubenga?

Minnie Forte-Brown  31:47  

Oh yeah, this was, this was Eric Becoats.

Samuel Scarborough  31:50  

Ok.

Minnie Forte-Brown  31:52  

We had 91% [at] reading level.

Samuel Scarborough  31:55  

Wow,

Minnie Forte-Brown  31:58  

Because you were intentional. You told the principals, "somebody has to be held accountable." If you're the principal, you're placing teachers in positions... it has to come back to you. It has to come back to you. And so, this is what the expectation is. You gotta move the children. You just gotta do it. So, what does it mean? Do we stay after school? Do we work with parents? What is it you do? What is it you do? And, and so, once you put people's feet to the fire, you either, if it gets too hot, then you either got to get out of it, and let's put somebody else in there. So that's what we did, and when, when they, when they fired him for using the district credit card and having his family using the school bus to bring his family to to see his son graduate, they fired him for this.

Samuel Scarborough  33:08  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  33:10  

Um, yeah.

Samuel Scarborough  33:12  

So they overlooked, so just to hear you correctly- 

Minnie Forte-Brown  33:14  

Oh yeah. 

Samuel Scarborough  33:14  

They overlooked the, seems like, record performances of the public schools, all of the work behind the scenes that went into improving academic outcomes for the students. They overlooked those things.

Minnie Forte-Brown  33:28  

It was personal. Because he said, "I'm the superintendent, so the buck stops with me." He said, "I'm the superintendent, so I have a strategic plan, and we're going to execute. There are goals to be met." And, they didn't like his- they didn't like him, they didn't like him. And, at that time, it was four to three,

Samuel Scarborough  33:58  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  34:00  

Yeah, four to three. So, that was the end of that. And so, we got an era of issue other people in that perhaps were not as- well, the one that we brought in, he was, he was just a placeholder. He just came in to get his salary, his retirement, so we did, we did, we did nothing.

Samuel Scarborough  34:26  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  34:26  

We did nothing. And so we slipped back. So anyway, I became a national leader. I was the southern region for so I had all the southern states with the National School Board Association. I, it was [an] absolutely wonderful time. And when my time was up, at 16 years, I said, "okay, that's enough." You don't just keep staying some place, you know, and it's not a, it's not a lifetime position. No-

Samuel Scarborough  34:59  

If only some of the people on the federal level right now...

Minnie Forte-Brown  35:01  

Yeah, you gotta know this, you gotta know that it's the younger people that are coming that have fresh ideas, that have energy, and and move on! Watch television. Find you something else to do, and get get behind them and fuel them, encourage them, don't think this is you have to die in this space. It's not that, it's not that. So it had been enough time. And I was honored that they, my board, voted to have this, the development, staff development center, named in my honor, and I'm forever grateful. Now, I'm not running up there every day. Look, you know, trying to run things. I've not done that. I'm honored. I'm honored. Thank you. And because you have work to do, I'm not on the school board. I've not, I've not been to a school board meeting. I do talk to some members of the school board if I think things that you need to look at some things differently, because I think you always need a coach. Lavonia Allison was my coach. And even though some things I didn't like she said, I had to listen to her, because she was brilliant. And she was rooted. Rooted, rooted in what Black people need and what's best for us, for our community. Rooted in that. Never was self. She was never about herself, it was about: what do we do to move forward? I didn't always agree. I didn't always agree. Because you do have to have sometimes we do have to have a back and forth with the people who are in power in order for me to get what I want. I can't go in and just cuss you out all the time. I can't just do that. Even though I may feel like that, I can't do that. 

So, having and Steve Schewel is my good friend. We go out to lunch. That's why I got Black Lives Matter. I called him, I said I want to paint my street. He said, well, you want to go somewhere, paint Black Lives Matter on my street. He said, "just ask your neighbors if they're okay with it." So it's been out there for four years, five years. Yeah, so, you know, that that's, and we have a genuine friendship. We have a genuine friendship. He may not agree with everything that I agree with, and may not, but we still have a respect for each other, and I know he's a good guy. 

So, what am I doing now? Watching television. And I have the distinct honor of being a guest at Radio One. I'm going to be honored on Radio One with Tina Knowles, so... Beyonce. So, I have this deep honor of being acknowledged as a positive educator, so I'm proud of that. I'm working with my church, and we just, White Rock Baptist Church was founded by a woman. So, Margaret [Ruffin] Faucette, we had an honoring of her day, and I work on the women's committee, so I work at my church. I was one of the founders of KIPP here in Durham. Tammy Sutton was a visionary. She UNC. And I don't know where she is now. She had an autoimmune deficiency, and we couldn't find her for months, so we don't know. I don't know where she is, but her vision for the, for the children in Gaston County was amazing. And she took that peanut field and created something. And she wanted to do something similar in Durham. And we aligned, and I was the only school board member in North Carolina that was an elected school board member that also stood in favor of charter schools. I can can't get angry if you decide you want something different for your child. You want the best-

Samuel Scarborough  39:51  

Education.

Minnie Forte-Brown  39:51  

Education for your child. And if it is in a charter school, you see that as being best for your- then I'm going to go with you on that, because I want the best for mine. Now, charter schools are public schools. Yes, some of them are good, and some of them are not. We wanted KIPP to be a good school. It was putting kids in college, they were going to college, and I thought they down in Gaston County, and I thought we could replicate that in Durham. Whether or we- sometimes you don't hire the right people to get the job done. And so, KIPP in Durham has not been really successful. And I cannot spend my time bickering back and forth. I don't, I don't- those are the meetings where I'm out, because we're not talking about how you're moving forward, so I have not been... I became enthralled and in love with KIPP when I met the founders out in Texas, and what they were doing, and how they were moving children, and then Tammy Sutton here in North Carolina, and where she was going. And, oh I thought that was beautiful. But then, when you're not hiring good teachers, yeah, you're just picking up people off the street. Okay, okay. 

Samuel Scarborough  41:29  

Yes, ma'am.

Minnie Forte-Brown  41:30  

Let me just go. 

Samuel Scarborough  41:30  

But, sometimes it's important. One, I want to acknowledge your humility there. I look at someone who does community organizing work. I know how much goes into building a project, and for this case, building an institution that is not only abstract but concrete, and being able to say to take a step back and say, "hey, the program wasn't able to go as I had planned, but these were the different things that could have been done better." I think that humility should be admired, and I think it's also important to acknowledge that with the work, as you know, it's important to experiment. If the current models that we're using, especially for education, are not producing the outcomes we want for our young people, then we have to change it. We have to try different things, and sometimes we'll fail. Sometimes we might not meet the achievement outcomes that we set out for, but the best we can do is try.

Minnie Forte-Brown  42:30  

Is try. If you know it's failing, the only thing you can go is up. You can't get- and so, let's try something different. And you've got to have when you're building things, you have to have a team. So if your parents aren't working with you. It's only happened for six hours. You got him for the other 18. What are you doing? And if you don't know how to do it, then we need to teach you how to do it. See, so it's not.. I'm not gonna.. we can't blame parents, because I don't know.. I don't read myself. I don't know if he.. I don't know how to read. I'm going to the store and picking things out by the color. So we gotta, I gotta give you grace, because you're not doing it because you don't want to do it, you're not doing it because you don't know how to do it. And so I've got to understand that, so it's we got to understand and give grace to our to our community. Go read to your child at night.

Samuel Scarborough  43:45  

And to, to kind of add on to what you're saying, and then we'll transition to another, another question. Um, I wanted to add on that it is important to acknowledge that we got to give grace. When I think about the broader context of our existence here in the United States. When it comes to being able to have a family on our own volition, that is a very new thing for Black Americans. When it comes to having access to reading and being, and not being punished for reading, that's still very new. When you look at the broader, as you know, the broader historical context in the United States. So, I think I agree with you. We got to give-

Minnie Forte-Brown  44:26  

It's about community grace. And we have to teach. You could have adult reading classes. Everybody doesn't have to know that this is the adult reading class. I'm just going up here to the Hayti Center. Who wants to admit that? We could do it in our churches.

Samuel Scarborough  44:53  

Yes, ma'am. And that, and that reminds me, because I know the modern school district that you were serving in. In was a lot different than how schools were organized during your upbringing. So I wanted to ask, what were some of the, who were some of the neighbors? What were some of the buildings that stuck out to you when you were younger? And what was that experience like, if you can recall, going through the Black school district that existed here in Durham, at the time?

Minnie Forte-Brown  45:24  

I am forever proud and grateful for segregation. I only, only went to Black schools. W.G. Pearson, named after a Black leader, all-Black teachers. I went to, well, because we was, it was so many children born, we must have been doing a whole lot of stuff back there in 1949. We, we didn't have the JW Whitted was not big enough for our class, the class of '67. So those of us who lived down here on the Southside, they, we went to what is now Fayetteville Street School. It was, they divided us up. We had our sixth grade year in parts of an old Pearsontown school that sat right there on while they were building Fayetteville Street School. Okay. My other classmates, who were from the North End, Walltown, and all of that, because all Black children went to the same school, you know, and it was Whitted. They went to Whitted, so when they got enough room for us, this was in the not the seventh grade. Hillside was building an annex, that is where the science building and stuff. It was annex. They let us go there and finish out our seventh grade year. My brothers were so angry because they were seniors and juniors at Hillside, and I was running around, "Hey, William Gary!" Oh, and he said, "Oh my god, that's Forte's little sister. Here is this Forte's little sister." Oh, it was terrible, terrible. And so, so we did. We finished our seventh grade year there. Then we all got to go to Whitted in the eighth grade, so we were all together. Then the ninth grade, we all came back to Hillside, so we were the only class in the class of '67 that went to seventh grade and ninth grade at Hillside. 

Well, I didn't have a white teacher until I was in the 11th grade. Ms. Scatinelli was my psychology teacher, and in the 12th grade I had Ms. Jordan. I was supposed to be in honors English. I didn't tell my mother that I was getting out of honors English. But I knew they did too much reading. They were the smart kids. I wanted to be with my friends, so I opted, and they let me do it. I went to Ms. Jordan's class, I learned absolutely nothing. My 12th grade year, nothing. I didn't read Romeo and Juliet. I did nothing. I made A's and B's. We did nothing. She was the worst teacher I ever had. I mean, nothing. We sat down. We talked to each other, you know? I had a good time. Absolutely nothing. And I regret that, of course, my mother didn't know. She was trying to have two kids in college and one in high school. She's no husband, she, she was, she was frustrated. So all she wants you to do, you bring home good grades, that's that's fine. I know you, you know, you know what you're supposed to do. 

So anyway, I could not have had a better elementary, high, junior high, high school all Black. It was fabulous. You could be anything you wanted to be. You could do whatever. It was no question. Do you want to be in the chorus? Do you want to be a dance girl? Do you want to be in the band? Do you want? It was open, open for you. There was no, well, you had to compete, you know. But you on any team you wanted to be on, you try out, you make it, you don't make it. You, it was a sense, and you had to know I wanted to be a cheerleader, but you had to do a back, a back bend. You had to be able to do a back bend and a forward roll. I couldn't do that. So they said, Minnie, you'll be in the pep club, okay? Hell, you can't do it in the pep club. So it was... it wasn't like, you know, I'm devastated, I'm going to kill myself, you know, because other things for you to do, you can't do this. Your legs aren't big enough to be a majorette. And you don't know how to twirl, so those, there were criteria, and you had to meet that to be- So, can you sing? I'm in a special chorus. Can you talk? You can do, you can do all that. So find what your gift is, and we're going to help you build that gift, but you can't do everything, no, you're not gonna kill yourself, because you didn't, you didn't make it, because there's so many other things that you are good at. And so, that kind of inspiration was always there. 

Now, were people always nice to you? No. Yeah, you're.. we had a dean of students. She liked you, she loved you. If she didn't, you know. Mr. Gill Walter, Mr., Prof. Alston was our person. He was harsh. If you skip school, you got punished. It was, it was life. It was life. There was no coddling. You get your work done and you do, and our teachers taught. Our teachers taught. There was an expectation. Mr. Lucas was my principal.

Samuel Scarborough  51:09  

Okay, John Lucas?

Minnie Forte-Brown  51:11  

John Lucas, yes. And I have my yearbook. I mean, you could be whatever you wanted to be. You wanted to be on the yearbook staff, or you want to be on the chronicle set, because we had opportunities. If you wanted to be a tailor, if you wanted to be in my friends that are electrical engineers started in high school, because we had, we had engineering, we had, we had what do you, what do you call these other things? We had tailoring. We had, you could be whatever you wanted to be. You knew that when you left high school, there was something for you to do. You either go into the army, you're going to open up a business, you're doing, and that's where people were. They were, we were fabulous. We had 300, 383 people in our class.

Samuel Scarborough  52:07  

Wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  52:08  

Hillside High School. The best. Class of 1967, the best from the nest. And so my whole family went to Hillside. My mom was a graduate. So we weren't worried about what was happening in Durham High. Great football, Bonnie [Dayle] Logan, the best tennis player ever. You could play tennis, you could, you could be a wrestler, you could be on the football team, you could be on a basketball team, you could be on the baseball team, you could do, you could do whatever you want. You could be a majorette, you could be a cheerleader, you could be in the choir, you could. 

So it wasn't like you, these kids that don't do anything after school, you are all, was always something going on after school. Your clubs, your yearbook staff, you're, you're doing whatever you're doing, so kids don't have, they don't belong to anything. They, I see the kids leaving school, leaving Hillside, and I'm saying, there's no science club, there's no chemistry. We're doctors and lawyers. What are you doing? Your debate club? What are you doing? What, what kinds of things are you having kids experience, and I think that's part of the teachers, you got lazy teachers. I don't know. But our teachers stayed around. I think it was an expectation from administration that you know you're building kids. You, you're helping put dreams. People have dreams. What do you want to do? I don't know anybody in my class that turned out to be a bum. You're going to open up an auto shop, you're going to, you're going to be a brick mason, you, you're gonna have your own business, you're gonna-  I don't know anybody that wasn't successful because that was put in you. 

Our families worked at the factory, you know. My mother was a teacher, but my dad worked at Duke in the kitchen, and then he was a janitor for Durham Public Schools. No shame in that game. We didn't have a car. Oh, we used to walk everywhere. It's no shame in that game. I mean, we were... this is the house, it's the house I grew up [in]- that's my bedroom, that's my bedroom. My brother's bedroom was next, and then my mom and dad's bedroom. We had three bedrooms. It was no shame in the game.

Samuel Scarborough  54:51  

Yes, ma'am. And do you remember your neighbors? Because it's,

Minnie Forte-Brown  54:53  

Oh, your neighbors across the street. Yes, all the people. Miss Johnson, Miss Malone, Miss Cook. Miss Flora, her mean ass, Miss Flora- lived next door. So Geneva Mebane, Dunbar Street was a classic street. Teachers lived on Dunbar Street.

Samuel Scarborough  55:15  

Okay.

Minnie Forte-Brown  55:16  

Yeah.

Samuel Scarborough  55:16  

I did not know teachers were staying on Dunbar.

Minnie Forte-Brown  55:19  

Yeah, Frank was what is his last name? Why can't I remember? Yes, he was the principal. He lived down there and the Thope's lived there. Then the Walker's lived over there. The Glenn's lived at the end, and Frank... oh my goodness, I can't remember his name. Frank Burnett, Mister Burnett. Mr. Burnett, he was a principal. He became the principal at Pearson School,

Samuel Scarborough  55:45  

Okay,

Minnie Forte-Brown  55:46  

after Mr. [N.A.] Cheek. Mr. Cheek lived down on you, you know where your teachers lived. Mr. Cheek lived down where the new school, the new new student union is. He was on that corner. He had, yeah, yeah,

Samuel Scarborough  56:01  

Right over- is that Foster? I'm trying to remember... 

Minnie Forte-Brown  56:03  

It's Cecil, it's Cecil street. He lived on the corner-

Samuel Scarborough  56:07  

The corner of Cecil and Nelson?

Minnie Forte-Brown  56:08  

Yeah! Nelson is the one coming close to where the, where the beginning of the student union is, and it ends right there. That whole- that takes up that whole block. Yes, so you knew your teachers lived there. We saw him in the store, you know, you saw him at church, or you saw him in the yard doing things. You, you know, where they... you knew who your people were. Plus, you know, there was back in the day, you got to meet your teachers, came to your house to introduce themselves before school started. 

Samuel Scarborough  56:39  

Yes ma'am. Wow!

Minnie Forte-Brown  56:42  

Those were the days, I went to NCCU's nursery school.

Samuel Scarborough  56:42  

You went to their nursery school?

Minnie Forte-Brown  56:49  

I graduated. I have my little picture up there when I was five. So, this campus has always been like a playground for us when the band marched down the street, they- we marched with the band, we jumped in and we marched down, because we're kids and we were all growing up, and the school was NCCU was open like that. A little different. We don't have any children, we don't have any kids in our neighborhood now.

Samuel Scarborough  57:17  

Yes ma'am.

Minnie Forte-Brown  57:19  

Yeah, that's my story.

Samuel Scarborough  57:21  

Oh, wow, wow. I'm thinking, especially because you brought up the nursery school I know with my family and the Scarborough Nursery School. I wanted to know what other key landmarks, institutions, because you know, when I think of Hayti, I think of North Carolina Central. You mentioned White Rock Baptist,

Minnie Forte-Brown  57:40  

White Rock Baptist Church, that's where 147 is now. So, oh my goodness, because we didn't have a car, we walked to church. Okay, so you had the Bull City drugstore that actually had ice cream. We would go and get, we would run from Sunday school down, get ice cream from sometime. Okay, you had the pool hall, you had, of course, Mechanics and Farmers Bank, where they've got the little ambulance station. Now it's Mechanics and Farmers Bank. You had this is going this way, not going down the other way. This is coming down towards, this is...

Samuel Scarborough  58:19  

Towards where the new Saint Joseph's is

Minnie Forte-Brown  58:21  

Exactly.

Samuel Scarborough  58:22  

Not going up towards downtown,

Minnie Forte-Brown  58:24  

Right? This is going toward where the old, where the old Saint Joseph's, right there. White Rock was on the corner, and the Saint Joseph's, and that's why they didn't, they didn't tear them down, because it was, it was kind of in the middle, and oh, but you had, you had grocery stores, you had the Gulf Station, you had the, and you had houses. My cousins lived in row houses, they right there on Elm Street, and it- shotgun three bedrooms, um not three bedrooms, three rooms, living room, middle room, and then kitchen, whatever. That's that's how they were, but you, we had DeShazors

Samuel Scarborough  59:09  

The beauty school!

Minnie Forte-Brown  59:10  

a beauty school. You had, you had Bull City Barber but I supposed that Bull City Barber was there. You had a see on it, was two sides, you were coming down Fayetteville Street. It was, and then we now going the other way, where, where Hayti, see, we never considered. I don't know if we consider White Rock as being a part of Hayti, and Saint Joseph's. Hayti was stopped at Pettigrew Street. It was the Gulf, Mr. Space had his golf station there, and Long's Florist was on the other side, and we walked down Hayti Elvira's Blue Dinette Service Printing Company, Scarborough. My grandmother loved your, is he your great granddad, great great

Samuel Scarborough  1:00:06  

Sr.? John Scarborough, Sr.?

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:00:09  

He wore a carnation,

Samuel Scarborough  1:00:11  

it might have been John, John C. Scarborough, Sr.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:00:13  

He was, he was short. He always had a suit on, and he had my grandmama said, I don't want Pookie Fisher, and I don't want the Fisher's to have my body. When I die, I want Scarborough because he knows how to do it. What we did, he was.. oh, he would be out there from the Scarborough funeral home. He'd always have a boutonniere, always a boutonniere, always suited. Oh, my grandmother loved that. 

Now, my uncle was, was an alcoholic. He was a street preacher. His name was Obadiah. Okay, and he couldn't do it in front of Scarborough, but he moved down the street. He would ask for money, instead of doing the wintertime. They picked him up, and he would go and stay in jail. So that was where he had, you know, got his meals, but in the summertime he would be down there- he was a street beggar, and he would be preaching and stuff, people give him money.

So, but, he would be closer to Elvira's Blue Dinette, but you had well, at one time we had Malcolm X University there, and WAFR, it was in the Biltmore Hotel and Biltmore drugs [store] underneath. We had the donut shop. We had- it was service printing company. You needed something printed in your obituaries. Whatever was there. It was, it was where you knew Black businesses. 

And for us, we walked downtown. That's why we all people stayed in shape, you know. You walked, we walked from.. I walked from this house to downtown. You crossed railroad track, and the record bar was the first little place there, my girlfriend worked at the record bar because her daddy owned a piccolo, piccolo business, jukeboxes, and Alice Sharpe, so we would go in there and we'd buy, I've had downstairs I have the most wonderful collection, 45s and albums every every week, you save your money to go and get music, so and then we see, so we- Hayti, and we didn't go at night time, but I mean, walking through, Hayti was, I mean, it was your neighborhood, and you, you weren't, you weren't afraid or anything like that, because there were Black businesses that were doing things down and people making money, and anytime because we didn't have Black hotels, the only hotel we had was Biltmore Hotel, and when a star would come to town like James Brown, they stayed at the Biltmore. So you could get a Clyde McPhatter you could get a chance to run down- "oh! he's! he's there! he's at the!" Nobody was taking pictures. The old lady, not old ladies, they were beautiful ladies, were going down there and try to get boyfriends sleeping or something like that. But yeah, so Hayti was our business district, and you supported it, you supported it, you know, whatever you could get from there, did you have to go downtown for you, got it,

Samuel Scarborough  1:03:29  

Yes, ma'am, and I've been in based off of what I've learned from my family, as well as speaking with others, Hayti, just for the sake, Hayti is different than Black Wall Street.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:03:42  

Oh yeah,

Samuel Scarborough  1:03:43  

Yes.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:03:44  

oh yeah, Black Wall Street was a Parrish Street,

Samuel Scarborough  1:03:49  

because I always see sometimes, especially folks that are not from here, I always see sometimes they try to say, Hayti, Black Wall Street like they're the same thing.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:03:57  

No, no, very different, very different, the Mutual- Mutual Savings and Loan, and Mechanics and Farmers Bank was side by side, and that was our Black one, because that was the money, that is where you went to get, you need to get your loan, you need to go talk to somebody about getting to get something for your house, that's where you went, Mutual Savings and Loan, and Mechanics and Farmers. We had the branch Mechanics and Farmers was down here, but the big people are downtown.

Samuel Scarborough  1:04:35  

Wow, wow. And I think linking this back to this house specifically, you've spoken a few times about how this is a generational residence, and I wanted to ask, How has owning this property shaped your family's identity, your opportunities, and your responsibilities across generations? It feels like both in listening to what you shared thus far, and thinking about it from my own experience as well, with the with the Scarborough properties, there's a lot of thought towards how these places bind us across generations.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:05:16  

Exactly, now we never knew anything about Stokesdale, that's something Preservation Society, we just knew we lived on Merrick Street, and named after John Merrick. Dunbar over there, Dupree right here. And college professors, working people, factory people, all mixed together. Okay, it was a neighborhood, and we owned this property, and what was next, the property that's next to 1614 so we had lots on hand, so we had Easter egg hunts, we had all kinds of things. It was Maude Logan lived at the corner of Lawson and Merrick. They owned the Regal Theater, Asa Spalding lived at the bottom of Lincoln, at the back that going down Lincoln and Dupree, all of that land. The McDougalds lived right across where you have the parking lot now for the in the residence, the McDougalds. The Hubbards lived, he was a dentist. So, when we talk about what this neighborhood was, you had factory people mixed in with doctors and lawyers and entrepreneurs. I mean, the Logan's owned the Regal Theater, that was, that was the only one we could go to, but they also went to church with us, and so I mean, you, my teacher lived on Dunbar Street, Miss Thorpe, I mean, she was my mother's good friend, and I mean, it was like it was a neighborhood, Louis Austin lived right across right on Dunbar Street, the creator of the Carolina Times. 

So, when we think about neighborhoods growing up here, I've, I felt that I could be anything I wanted to be. We always knew we were going to college, even though the guy across the street opened his business as a brickmason. He didn't, college wasn't in his future, but he built houses, and his son is a realtor, his other daughter is a doctor. I mean, just, it's, it's amazing. You, when I would come home, Miss Malone across the street would be so nosy trying to see who was, because it was a community. Is that little boy supposed to be over there? You know, she would, she would have that kind, and she knew she had that kind of authority to do that. She could say that to me without any repercussions from my, from my mother about having spoke to me, you know, when people say, you know, how you talking to my child like that in the neighborhood, anybody could reprimand you if you were out of pocket, anybody, they tell you, and then they tell their parent, and then they tell your parent what you were doing that they thought was out of pocket. Okay. 

So, neighborhoods, I, I couldn't have thought of a better place I could go to Lincoln Hospital, walk up the street to Lincoln Hospital, I could, my piano lesson was down on Formosa, it was everything was walkable this way, you didn't, you didn't have to have a car, you, you, and you used your legs to take your place, or you rode a bike. I couldn't, we couldn't cross Fayetteville Street or Alston Avenue. There's no need to try. All we could do is just ride up and down around it, because those were busy streets. Those were busy streets, and you had no business going across there. A little girl, boys could do it. 

But, yeah, so growing up in this house, and I never thought we were poor, but we were, because the mortgage was only $91 a month, and my mother and father scraped for that. We had to, I had to share my room with a college student who paid us. Downstairs, we have a full basement downstairs when sometimes we would have, because my dad was from Sampson County. If you were coming up to the big city to be a barber, you went to Bull City Barber College. They stayed downstairs.

Samuel Scarborough  1:10:24  

Wow,

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:10:24  

They had they had, we had room for them. Minnie, Minnie and William have room in the house. You can go and stay up there, you know. And so that was how families, how families did, you know. And they gave, I guess, some some kind of money to to help out, so we could have clothes and food, we could live comfortably.

Samuel Scarborough  1:10:45  

Yes ma'am. Wow, that is amazing. I think one of the, one of the last things I wanted to ask you today was about changes. What changes, positive and negative, have you noticed in this community over the years? I know you briefly mentioned 147, I know you've mentioned the shift in the school district and the level of education that our Black students today are receiving. And then also you've mentioned this idea of "we were a neighborhood." What does it look like now?

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:11:22  

I don't know the people that live down the street. I don't know their names, I know my, my people across the street, but the people that have moved down there, I don't know, we don't- we try to have that with community August thing, where everybody's neighborhood party, or whatever. So few people come, people are insulated, they don't. We don't share like we used to. If my, if my mom made a pound cake, she would give cake, you know, to neighbors. We don't do that. None of my neighbors come to my house.

Samuel Scarborough  1:12:14  

Wow,

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:12:15  

I don't go to their house. I've never been to any of my neighbors' homes since we've since we moved, since I've been, I've just.. it's, and it is amazing. I may talk, I talk to the people across the street, because they have little children, but I speak to everybody, you know. And, but if I have a cookout or something like that, I don't necessarily invite my neighbors. It's interesting. It's really interesting. Now, my little niece lives on the corner, of course. She comes down, but yeah, I don't... I don't know my neighbors. I wouldn't, if you asked me their names. This is a- this is a halfway house over here, and there's a halfway, it's halfway house across the street, so clearly I wouldn't, that doesn't mean I should know them, but I've only taken the guy to church one time with me, but no neighborhood is it's not neighborhood, we don't, I'll, I will talk to them about, I'll pass them a piece of paper and ask them if they have, if they want to help me paint the street. We don't, we don't hang out.

Samuel Scarborough  1:13:26  

Yes, ma'am. And that, that seems like it's in stark contrast to how it was when you were growing up. 

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:13:33  

Yeah, because we knew we, we knew that we knew the people. Now I do, I know the lady that lives in the house up there on the corner, but people down the street, it's fluid. People move in and move out, they're not stable. I mean, you know that aren't trying to stay here forever. This is just a piece. We had the people that were here were rooted, you had your children here, and they weren't going anywhere, they died here. These are just stopovers.

Samuel Scarborough  1:14:10  

Yes, ma'am, yes ma'am. And so, thinking about that, when you think about the future of Hayti and this broader, like Fayetteville Street corridor community. What do you hope decision makers who are in positions like you once were, and also those you know, city council, county board of commissioners, business leaders in a broader community, what do you want them to- what do you hope that they understand about the legacy of this place? What will honoring the corridor's history look like in practice? And what would a respectful and responsible approach to change here look like in your eyes?

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:14:59  

Our time is coming to an end, and we have to think about, we've got to involve young people in deciding what this looks like, because- just admit it, you know, just you're old now, and so that's stuff I'm talking about. That is not what- that's not what they want to do. Find out, you gotta have young voices, you see. 

When, when my mom and dad were young, they were talking about, there were young people around. What do these kids want to do? What did.. what is it that you see that you say this is where we need to be? Do we need something in AI down there? What do we need to entice young people? So we're talking about bringing businesses down. What businesses do the young people want to see down there? And not talking about that mess that we want to see down there, you already- we got our stuff. You already had your time, you know. So what? 

What- on Tuesday nights, me and my husband sometimes go down to the place right there on that end. Guy from Wilmington owns it. I can't remember what it's called now. Rhythm, Rhythm and Brew, and it's packed with young people that are listening to music, they, it's like a, it's like not a free for all. What do you do that when you, you know, you get your band up here and you do all the.. and then we, okay, oh my god, they are having such fun, and they're singing, and it's.. it's new music, and it's good, and you know the guy from something for the people, he plays the people woods for them live, but they got new drummers, give you drum, you come on up there, if you play sax- and I'm saying this is where the college kids are, this is great, all we want to do, I just want them to be safe, I want nobody down there being stupid, but it's packed, and they are having fun, it's wonderful. That's how that should be. We go down to Blue Blue Note, that's where the old people are, because we are down there and they're singing the old songs. We want the same shit every- but that's good, because that's good for us. 

That's not- so when we talk about what do I want to see, I want to see, I want to see a place that's alive. I want to see young people with great ideas bringing their talents and, and showing old people, okay, maybe if you want to have a knitting class or something down there, we can come down there. If you do, you know at Hayti, they have the quilters, the people that you may have some young quilters, but you may have some, some, some older ones who can teach you. That's wonderful. I want to see life, sparks, people that are enjoying doing what they do, they're bringing their gifts and their talents, and nobody's saying "oh no, you don't need to do that here," if it's AI, and you know, whatever it, if it's open mic, what I don't... I don't know what it is in young... I think- my brain is old, okay. So let's talk to those new brains that are on THC and stuff like expanding their minds, you know. Our time is over, we were drinking liquor, and you know, smoking that old reefer that used to be out there, they don't do that anymore, we don't do that no more, that's that's gone. 

Okay, so talk to young people. I think we, you talk to us about the past, but I think I want to walk in the footsteps of the future. I want to walk where you walking out, I'm not trying to follow him about 100 years old. I'm 76 I want my grandson like ATVs. I'm not doing that, but that's that's what you want to do for your birthday, you and you and your you and your girl you do ATV bike, that's cute. I like that. I'm not doing it, but that's that's something that young people do, and I, I think you, you're in your 20s. What do you see? He's gonna, he's teaching now, and he says he wants to be an electrician. He wants to open up his open, that's what he wants to go to school for. Do it, do it. You don't have to stay in the glass room. He says he's tired of doing it now. Do something else. So, I think that did I leave my phone on the porch.

Samuel Scarborough  1:19:54  

You might have. It is okay. You can, you can take a break, right there.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:19:57  

Ok, you know I have knee problems, so I have to steady myself.

Samuel Scarborough  1:20:08  

Yes ma'am.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:20:54  

It sure is... That was my daughter.

Samuel Scarborough  1:21:09  

Oh, wow.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:21:10  

Needs to pay her gas bill. Mama,

Samuel Scarborough  1:22:29  

No, understood. Look, I'll probably.. I'll probably be in a similar situation soon.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:22:39  

Okay. I know I've been just talking your head off. Have I answered any of the questions that you asked?

Samuel Scarborough  1:22:43  

Yes, absolutely, you've answered pretty much all of them, like I've only, like, asked you know explicitly, maybe two or three, but out of the eight I had, you basically answered all of

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:22:54  

Scotty! Don't tell, don't tell story.

Samuel Scarborough  1:23:00  

Not telling a lie. Look, the only, the final, parting question I have for you today is, is there anything that you would have liked for me to ask, or any other stories, memories, things you want to bring into this, this, this oral history interview?

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:23:20  

Durham, North Carolina is the absolute best place for Black people to have grown up in. Anything that you thought about, you may have wanted to be in life, you had a Black person that had done it, that was touchable. I was flying Piedmont Airlines when I was at Morgan State, coming back home. Juan Wheeler, a Durham man on that airline. When I think about you, people say from Chicago, they're from this place, and everything. Yeah, but see, I had icons that were touchable that had PhDs when I was growing up. I had one right here in my household, but I had the dean of the college that her son was the dean of North Carolina Central University. I had professors, you could be, you could be people were plumbers that own their own businesses, they were contractors, they built homes, they. I had whoever I had loan sharks that worked at the factory, but they provided money for people who couldn't perhaps get a loan from the bank at that time. You need $1,000 so your daughter can go to Hampton. John Howard could give it to me, that that was he could pile. I peel it off like that, and it wouldn't be a problem for him, because he has saved his money, and he had done that, so he could, you couldn't get, baby you can't get a loan, you don't have the wherever, but he was a loan shark that could do that, he was a Christian, he paid his money in church, so it was Durham, North Carolina, gave me when I went to Baltimore. 

I was not impressed, you know, Morgan State. It was a beautiful campus and everything, but I had Durham. I had Durham. I had North Carolina Central University right here. I came from North Carolina. They were talking about, my roommate asked me, she said, "Do you have a telephone?" I said, "Oh, we have five phones." She said, "Oh, well, I'm just asking because my grandmother lived in North Carolina. She had, she lived on a dirt road, and she didn't have a telephone or inside bathroom." I said, "Well, I live in Durham, North Carolina. And I live on a paved street. And we have five phones, there's a phone in every bedroom and in the kitchen." What people have, you know, people somehow think, you know, when they come to North Carolina. Did they come to this backwoods place, place where Black people did extremely well in Durham. Extremely. Your family- funeral homes, I'm not talking about no fly-by nights, I'm talking about funeral homes, I'm talking about schools and colleges and churches and people who common people that you know, what we consider maybe blue collar, that were icons in their church and in their neighborhoods, you could be, you could be whoever, you could have a future, you could be- Masonic lodges and the Elks Lodge, you own- these people own land, it's not somewhere where they're renting someplace, they own it, they build it, and that's what Durham was. 

The ice cream company, you know, schools, they did it, they did it, and that's why when people say they're 'Bull City born, Bull City bred,' that's a proud thing. I have no issue with it. I don't have to pretend. I would tell my kids when they would- I said, "Where are you from?" "Well, I was born in Baltimore..." I said, "Where are you from?" Don't ever, you have to have pride in the soil that that nurtured you. It's so, I don't care if you're from Wagram, North Carolina, from, you know, the sticks, wherever it is, you have to have pride in that. Durham, Durham, born and Durham bred, baby, that's it. Bull City strong. 

So, yes, I love my city because it has everything. It has meant everything to me. Every opportunity that I ever wanted, I could receive it. My voice, it comes from Durham, comes from Durham, and you could go to the mayor, you could go to, you have no fear, he'll talk to you, go down city hall and talk to people. There was, it was not an issue, police chief, we had Black people in power, Black people in power in every position that there could be some Black person that's been in power, so yeah, I love my city.

Samuel Scarborough  1:28:49  

That's beautiful, that's beautiful. And look, I share that sentiment, Durham is near and dear to my heart, and like I told you before, the interview even started recording, whenever I'm talking, not just to my partner, but also to other people, I make it very clear that I'm from Durham, North Carolina, and specifically from the legacy of Hayti.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:29:11  

Exactly, exactly rooted! When you turn a corner, baby, and Scarborough funeral- still, yeah.

Samuel Scarborough  1:29:23  

Yes ma'am. I wanted to say, thank you for your time. I'm truly humble, honored, and grateful to be here in this beautiful home, speaking to you, learning from your experiences, listening to the stories and memories you shared today. They have definitely changed how I think about Durham. I know you know, like I said earlier, I have pride in my city, but you have given me even more pride in Durham, and I will keep carrying this forward.

Minnie Forte-Brown  1:29:54  

Good, that's it. That's it. You always remember you grew up in Emory Woods, so-