Interviewee(s): Catherine Ferrell & Shirley Ferrell Interviewed by: Trypetus Gibson Date of Interview: 02/24/2026 Location of Interview: Durham, NC Duration of Interview: 01:04:12 TRYPETUS: Today we're recording an oral history with Ms. Catherine Ferrell, a legacy property owner and known community member in Durham's Fayetteville Street Historic Corridor. This interview is part of a project to document personal experiences, community history, and the role of the community in shaping the corridor over time. There are no right or wrong answers. Please share only what you feel comfortable discussing. We are especially interested in your memories, perspectives, and hopes for the future. So this project is primarily focused on the historic Fayetteville Street Corridor Local Historic District, and the bounds that are north at Umstead and south at Nelson, centered along Fayetteville Street. The neighborhood, in a much larger context, is often referred to as Historic Hayti. However, we're interested to know more about the area that you define as your neighborhood, boundaries, and areas of your comfort based on where you've lived, worked, and grown up, to use as context of here and your neighborhood. We want to know if you have geographic reference for your neighborhood with anchors and local landmarks. So we're going to get into the questions now.
TRYPETUS: Were you born here in the Historic Hayti neighborhood?
CATHERINE: What now?
TRYPETUS: Were you born here?
CATHERINE: Was I born here?
TRYPETUS: Where were you born?
CATHERINE: Oh, in Warsaw, North Carolina.
TRYPETUS: Warsaw?
CATHERINE: Yes.
TRYPETUS: Has your family… Where is your family from?
CATHERINE: Warsaw.
TRYPETUS: How long did your family live in Warsaw?
CATHERINE: Well, I was born in Warsaw, and my mama—I don’t know where she was born.
TRYPETUS: What is the address of where you originally lived in Warsaw?
CATHERINE: I don’t even remember that address.
SHIRLEY: 210 College Street.
TRYPETUS: 210 College Street?
TRYPETUS: When did you come to Durham?
CATHERINE: In 1945.
TRYPETUS: What brought you to Durham?
CATHERINE: In Warsaw there was no extra work, you know, except them white folks' houses and all. And that’s what I had been doing all my life. Tending to little white children when I got old enough for a living, and cooking for white folks. I wanted something better than that, and so my sister was a—she was…and she came here and told me how it was. And then after she came, I came.
TRYPETUS: When you moved to Durham, did you move to this neighborhood, Historic Hayti?
CATHERINE: No, first I came on…I done forgot the name of the street over there where we were, but then I moved on Dowd Street. That was my main dwelling.
TRYPETUS: So what was your main motivation to move specifically to this neighborhood?
CATHERINE: This neighborhood?
TRYPETUS: Yes.
CATHERINE: After I had been here a while, my first husband died. But after I had been here a while, I had married another man. And he was, I don't know, adventurous. He sold his house and asked did we want it, and went on and just bought it.
TRYPETUS: What year was that, that you moved to this neighborhood?
CATHERINE: Oh, I don’t even remember the year.
TRYPETUS: Okay, that's fine.
SHIRLEY: In the 70s or the 80s.
TRYPETUS: What do you remember about daily life and business along Fayetteville Street when you moved here?
CATHERINE: Oh, I enjoyed it. People lived here…you couldn’t hardly get a house on Fayetteville Street. I don’t know how my husband got this one, but he got it.
SHIRLEY: You wanna talk about Hayti. Do you remember? Talk about Hayti and Pettigrew Street and all of that.
TRYPETUS: How do you remember Hayti as a whole?
CATHERINE: It was a growing, bustling place. It was a busy place ‘cause it had some stores, you know, on the street. There was a grocery store right up the street. That house is close, uh… It was really busy. There were churches that you could go to if you wanted to. And I enjoyed, cause I didn’t—when I moved here, I did not move my membership from where I was on Dowd Street.
TRYPETUS: What other kinds of places or people do you remember that made the neighborhood come alive?
CATHERINE: Well, I don't know except there was a place where you could—you know—go take exercise. I don’t know what you would call it, but that made it easy. You had somewhere to go.
SHIRLEY: W.D. Hill Recreation Center. And then you got the library.
TRYPETUS: Durham Library. Okay. Is your current residence a family-owned property?
SHIRLEY: Yes.
CATHERINE: My husband bought it. I guess in his getting around, he saw it. I don’t know where—it was empty. And so I guess he just applied for it and bought it.
TRYPETUS: So now it would be considered a family-owned property?
CATHERINE: Yes, this place right here.
TRYPETUS: How has owning this property shaped your family's identity, opportunities, or responsibilities across generations?
SHIRLEY: Talk about how this was the place that everybody came on Sundays; it was bustling in the summer. Talk about your activities, tents, the swimming pools, and all that you had out there.
TRYPETUS: Can you tell us more about how your property brought your family together? Your daughter mentioned swimming pools, family get-togethers on Sundays.
CATHERINE: Yeah, we had family get-togethers. I've got two rooms right there where I had bought [....] stove we could cook on. And we would have family reunions here and all that.
TRYPETUS: Do you all still have family reunions here?
CATHERINE: Not here. They all can’t get here. Half our family’s grown, so.
TRYPETUS: Were there any expectations or pressures tied to holding this house in your family?
CATHERINE: Holding this house.
TRYPETUS: Yes. Were there expectations that you needed to keep this house in your family?
SHIRLEY: Versus selling. Keep or sell, and how you feel about that.
CATHERINE: Well, I didn’t wanna sell it, especially. I like it here; it’s a good outlet. I live with her [her daughter] now, and she lives way out. I couldn't go there if I wanted to by myself.
SHIRLEY: She stays here in the day and comes with me at night.
CATHERINE: And when my husband was living, his mother had bought a big piece of land, but it didn’t have the fertility that we needed. And when he found this, he bought this.
TRYPETUS: So is this house a space where you would want to keep for generations to come?
CATHERINE: Yes.
TRYPETUS: What changes, positive and negative, have you noticed in the community over the years?
CATHERINE: Well, everything is closed down now. What we used to have, which was convenient to go to, is closed down now.
TRYPETUS: Are there moments of transition that stand out to you? So can you tell us more about those spaces that are now closed down and what they meant to you when they were open?
CATHERINE: My memory is not as good as yours, so I don’t. But I know, the things that they would have, I would go to it and enjoy. But my memory’s not good like it was one time.
TRYPETUS: Have there been any spaces she often talked about to you when you were growing up?
SHIRLEY: Now she knows about Hayti before urban renewal. And that's what she talks about. Her and my dad, they’d go out on Sundays down there to Hayti. There were some hot dog stands—walk up and down the street—it was just a bustling area of stores and something to do. There was a movie theater, shoe stores, it was just all of that. But then urban renewal came, and then that stopped. So the community now is trying to come back because now, you know, they had Walgreens, which is now though closed as of last year. Then you got Ms. Hester’s place, and you got the Hayti Phoenix Square. And then when you have the landmarks like the Stanford Library, you have W.D. Hill—and that’s what she was mentioning where you have exercising and the children, there’s activities there. And then we always have Lincoln Community Health Center. When she retired, even though retired, she volunteered at Lincoln Community Health Center, taking care of the children. And then she said—she’d make this comment and say, “But wait a minute, I’m volunteering and I'm taking away somebody’s job. So I need to let that job go to somebody else.” Then she just started keeping children in her home. That’s all.
TRYPETUS: Okay, thank you.
TRYPETUS: What does community mean to you?
CATHERINE: What does community mean to me?
TRYPETUS: Yes, it can be in reference to location, relationships, wherever.
CATHERINE: Well, in relationships, oh, that was good. Convenience, so you could get what you wanted. It was a circle [of people], you didn’t have to go way out like you do now.
TRYPETUS: Do you feel like the community was one where you could go next door and ask your neighbor for eggs if you needed it? That kind of thing.
CATHERINE: Well, I had moved in 2-3 places—before I married him [her late husband]—on Dowd Street, that’s in North Durham, where you could do that.
SHIRLEY: She’s talking about the community here. When you first were here there were neighbors here and neighbors there. They would sit on the porch across [from each other]. The lady had a beauty shop and talked—they just talked. Then it got to when she said a lot of empty places, that’s what it was. A lot of the older people moved out, so now you don’t know many of your neighbors. But there is a change coming, I think. Now, the community organizations, they’re having their various activities. She just went to one about maybe 2-3 months ago at W.D. Hill, where they block off the street around the corner. So that’s the community that they are trying to bring back.
TRYPETUS: Okay, so the community is still very much active, just trying to bring it back.
SHIRLEY: Yeah, just not as big or vibrant as it was at one time. And that’s because people have gotten older. A lot of people have sold or moved out of their houses. You may not know who your next-door neighbor is now, but you might know the ones across—and she [Ms. Ferrell] knows the ones around the corner, but she may not know the ones on this street now. And that’s the change that she’s seen.
TRYPETUS: When you think about the future of Fayetteville Street, what do you hope decision-makers and the broader community understand about the legacy of this place?
FERRELL: [I hope] that a lot of what was here would come back. Because you didn’t have to go way off to get what you wanted. You could get some of it right on Fayetteville Street. Cause I know it was inconvenient cause it was woods that used to be, coming down Elizabeth Street.
SHIRLEY: You’re talking about North Durham. She’s talking about the Fayetteville Street area. See, she also lived in North Durham before moving here. So we were in the county—in East Durham, moved to North Durham, and then moved here.
TRYPETUS: Okay. We want to know more about this neighborhood—Fayetteville Street. So, what do you think that people should understand about the legacy of Fayetteville Street?
CATHERINE: That it was a convenient place to get what you wanted, and one time you had to put your show on—a movie—and you could go right here to the movies, and all of that. And church, you could go here if you wanted to.
TRYPETUS: So what steps do you think future generations can take to preserve the history and to bring that sort of close-knit community back?
CATHERINE: Well, they have to pull it together, that’s one thing, first off. They must really want to do that. They have to pull it together.
TRYPETUS: You have witnessed many major national and community milestones over more than a century. How have the national events you've lived through—from the election of Franklin D. Roosevelt to Barack Obama—influenced your sense of community in Durham?
CATHERINE: I don’t know what to say to that. I was in favor of him [Barack Obama] and voted for him.
TRYPETUS: Did you see any reflections of his presidency, or either of their presidencies, in Durham? Did you see any effects of those directly in Durham?
CATHERINE: I don’t know what to say to that.
SHIRLEY: You can talk about enthusiasm to vote. You know, it encouraged a lot of people to vote.
TRYPETUS: Was voting very prominent? Was it expressed how important it was to vote in this community?
CATHERINE: What now?
TRYPETUS: Was it seen as very important to vote in this community?
CATHERINE: Yes, indeed! It was very important because if you didn’t, the other side would take control of everything.
SHIRLEY: She participated in a lot of the rallies. If you look up there [the wall], you’ll see she had a picture with Hillary Clinton. She went to President Obama's rallies, even went to one over in Chapel Hill or Raleigh. And then she has various letters from Congressman Butterfield, and then Natalie Murdock. She's been invited over to Raleigh to look at the session. That was when they were trying to change the redistricting lines, so she was over there doing that event. And that was just this year—well, the latter part of this year. So voting has been very important. How often do you vote, Mother?
CATHERINE: Every time they say vote, I vote. I don't sit home and say I'm not going to vote. Whenever it’s time to vote, especially for important issues. I don’t know these streets like my children do, but they know how to take me to them.
TRYPETUS: At NCCU we actually have “Soar to the Polls” today, which is an event where we—do you know what “Soar to the Polls” is?
SHIRLEY: Is it sponsored by St. Joseph’s? Because we usually go vote down there.
TRYPETUS: At the law school?
SHIRLEY: Yes.
TRYPETUS: Yeah, we’re marching down there today from 3-8 p.m., and all the students and everyone are welcome to go vote today.
SHIRLEY: Oh, okay.
TRYPETUS: You’ve been actively involved in civic life, including voting in local and national elections consistently for many decades. What motivates your commitment to civic engagement?
CATHERINE: I want better for us than we have because, you know, coming from slavery, you had to learn the best way to go. And whenever it came your way, you had to go ahead and fight for it.
TRYPETUS: Have you ever faced any troubles when you tried to vote?
CATHERINE: No. T
RYPETUS: Can you name a few social and political issues that you care about and have witnessed change over time? So this could be from gender inequality in the workforce, or racial inequality—anything like that. Any social issues.
SHIRLEY: Well, you can go back to a long time, Mother, you know, when you shopped downtown, and you had to go to the back door. And you had to drink from the water fountain, and had to go downstairs to shop. So voting and fighting for civil rights then was one of the major issues. But even now, what are some things that you are concerned about now that you would vote for?
SHIRLEY: Well, we think about crime, we think about property taxes, we think about activities for youth. And in voting, she’s participated in a lot of the, you know, the positive actions from voting. Like the Durham Senior Citizens, she got an award, but she used to exercise there three times a week, and that was something that was brought on by the City of Durham because of a vote—someone wanted to put the funds there. So, various amenities like that—for seniors, for youth, young adults.
TRYPETUS: Thank you. Your family’s legacy, including land ownership and raising generations here, is remarkable. Can you share more about what it meant to your family to own land and build a life here? Especially as the city has changed.
CATHERINE: I don’t know what to say to that.
TRYPETUS: How important, or how did you feel when you and your husband were able to buy this house? Did it bring joy?
CATHERINE: It was joy, you know. To have a man that wanted something, and step out there to get it. It was a pleasure cause I came up without a father. So, I think these children could enjoy a father because he could help them in so many ways.
SHIRLEY: In our family, we look at it as really remarkable because even our first generation out of slavery, my grandmother on my mom’s side, and on my dad’s side—Grandma Patty—owned and purchased land. And we’ll sit here and think about “How in the world did they do that?” My dad, my Grandma Patty, in East Durham—that’s where the first house that they lived in. That’s where Grandma divided all the land up to all her children. They had a whole little block there, and everyone got a little piece of that land.
SHIRLEY: So that’s what, I guess, instilled in my dad to always try to buy. So, he had that, then he bought another one in North Durham, and then he bought this one—so that’s what she [Ms. Ferrell] talks about, having that ambition to want to have something. So that was on both sides, my dad’s side and then my mom’s side. Like she said, her mother—Grandma Callie—was first generation out of slavery and she was able to buy that land on College Street in Warsaw. How they were able to do it? You know, just about washing clothes and all that, we don't know, but they worked. That’s instilled in all of us to at least try. She always says it: “If I can do this, with all the opportunities that are out there for you all, please try to take advantage of them.” Go to school, get as much education as you can. Be positive, serve, go to church. Church was a major thing for her.
TRYPETUS: So in buying this property, did your husband face any challenges, and how did he navigate those?
CATHERINE: Not that I know of. No more than paying for it, you know, paying for the house. With his job, he set aside so much for it.
SHIRLEY: And I’ll add back to that, then also the importance of the Black community and the Black bank. They banked at Mechanics and Farmers, and at that time, Mutual Savings and Loan and all. Even when I was a child my dad said, “Okay, the first thing you gotta do is go down there and get you a little loan at the bank. That’s the way you start your credit.” He took me down there to Mechanics and Farmers, and had me open up a loan for I think $100. I didn’t need it, but he said open up that loan for $100, you pay on it a little bit each month, and then you just go on and pay it off—and that’s how you set up your credit. That's the mentality he had, and that's what he instilled in us. Now, when I look at how even—when I learned what he was making on his job—I said, “How was he even able to maintain what his mom had given him on Elizabeth Street and do this?” But I know that his loans were at Mutual, that was a Black savings and loan institution. It was connected with Mechanics and Farmers, so they were almost like sister companies. So, they gave him a loan, you know, to do what he had to do. I know the houses didn't cost as much then as they do now, but just to think about what they made and were able to do. Sometimes we just sit here and wonder how. I don’t mean to take over, but those are the things she [Ms. Ferrell] would say.
TRYPETUS: May I ask what your father did for work?
SHIRLEY: His main job, he drove a local truck for a hardware store here in Durham, W.C. Lyons. On the weekends, he had his own lawn care business. He also had a community store down in East Durham. She ran that part of the time. Also, some of the older young adults, they were hired to run the store. And he was just always doing something—always working on somebody's equipment or somebody's car. So we just called him Jack of All Trades.
TRYPETUS: Earlier, you both mentioned the importance of faith and service. In what ways did your involvement with the church shape your sense of responsibility to the community?
SHIRLEY: Okay, Mother, you can talk about church. Start with your mother.
CATHERINE: Well, my mama in Warsaw belonged to a church in Magnolia. She never talked about her life, you know, what she came through and all that. So I don't know too much about too much. I know some Sunday mornings we’d get up and catch the train from Warsaw to Magnolia to church. And then there was another train that came back this way in the evening. We’d just sit back because that’s where Mom had most of her kinfolk in Magnolia.
SHIRLEY: So, what she normally says is that her mother instilled in them to go to church every Sunday that they had church. So she began being active in church even there. Then even as she moved here. One of the reasons that she moved from Warsaw to Durham was because she did not want to work on Sunday, so she needed another job instead of working on Sundays. So she came here to Durham to find a job. So that was her first thing, and then with church, she’s been really involved in church and various community activities. In fact, to show—not so much this community, but even the community in East Durham—the church and the community down there at that time didn’t have street lights. They didn’t have a lot of water and sewers, no paved roads, and no park. Between the community, called the Lamplighters organization, which she was a part of—secretary or something—and the church and community, they were able to get street lights. I guess they petitioned the city and county to get street lights, to get the bus service to run down there, to get the streets paved periodically, and to get a park down there. So that was in that first community.
SHIRLEY: Then as she moved to the next community, which was the North Durham community because she was a member of Mount Gilead there too. Like she said, she votes all the time, was active with the NAACP, and other various organizations like NCNW (National Council for Negro Women), missionaries, church activities, and the Elks. All of those are community service-acting organizations. Even here, she maintained those same organizations. So, same organizations, and now a member of the neighborhood association. They periodically have meetings, they're always passing out flyers, or either they’ll have meetings at Stanford L. Warren Library or W.D. Hill. In fact, they had the information session there, I think it was about 2 months ago. They were also responsible for getting the street paved. There are two streets over here that they had to advocate to get paved. Those are the things that she's a member of, maybe not so much active in terms of being that voice, but attending when they have their meetings and being supportive.
TRYPETUS: That is very powerful, it just shows the impact of community work and civic engagement and the results that are tangible. We can see the paved roads. We can see the street lights. I just think that is very admirable.
TRYPETUS: How did your faith help you navigate changes in the community?
CATHERINE: My mother instilled in us to always try to do the right thing. She didn’t get much education herself because she was sickly, and her legs was like [bowlegged]. You know, people take advantage of you when you’re like that if you don’t watch out. I think that's what my father did. But she overcame it.
SHIRLEY: How has the church helped you be active in the community? Your church in Durham, how has your affiliation with the church…
CATHERINE: They had different organizations in the church that you could work with, that you could be a part of. My mama instilled in us the right way to be, and to treat people. Treat people the way you would like to be treated. So that’s how we grew up—me and my sisters.
SHIRLEY: I just want to add, the churches normally are/were the main sources of passing information. So, growing up you always went to church. That’s where you heard about “this is going on”, “that is going on”, “we need to attend this meeting”, “we need to support the NAACP in this”, “we need to join NCNW”, etc. So the church has been that organization that would disseminate that information. Yeah, we had newspapers—and I know my mom used to, she took the newspaper [...] until they all, I think, changed and went virtual. And the cost of that got higher and higher, but the main information was through the churches. Bulletins, announcements, and even though everybody couldn't be the one to maybe be the president of an organization, you could spread the word.
SHIRLEY: My mom is a member of NCNW, and I remember she’d go to those meetings, then come home and tell us all the information they discussed. “Oh there’s going to be this health fair over here” or “they’re going to support this school over here so we need to donate this…”. So some of it was the sharing of the information. Even though you don’t have to be the officer, just sharing that information.
TRYPETUS: You lived and worked in Durham during times of significant growth and transformation. Segregated schools, economic shifts, and now revitalization efforts. What are some of the biggest changes in daily rhythms of life around Fayetteville Street that you’ve seen? Well, we’ve kind of already answered that.
TRYPETUS: Can you talk about seeing segregation, and how that was reflected in the community in Durham?
CATHERINE: ...
TRYPETUS: Do you remember seeing segregated community schools?
CATHERINE: Yes.
TRYPETUS: So, can you talk a little more about how that was shown? Especially in Durham and in this community.
SHIRLEY: You probably can talk about how the children had to be bussed [...].
CATHERINE: I think I know when I was in segregated schools, because some of us were at North Durham, and some of the children went to other schools. And they were white.
SHIRLEY: Do you remember when they desegregated schools?
CATHERINE: Yeah, I think. I hardly remember when they started going to white schools. You went to what [school]?
SHIRLEY: I went to Durham High. And that was the early part of it. That was the early part of the desegregation, I don’t know if it was the second or third year at Durham High, but it was early on.
TRYPETUS: Are there changes that you felt proud of, or concerned about, as the development continues—of Durham and Fayetteville Street?
SHIRLEY: Well, we just understand that change sometimes is good. History is very good.
TRYPETUS: Education and mentorship have been central to your life. From teaching Sunday school to advising young people. Can you tell us a memorable story of you having an influence in a young person's life? So that could be you mentoring a young person trying to guide them—any memorable stories?
CATHERINE: I don't know cause I used to keep children after school and all of that. And I tried to instill in them the right attitude to each other. When you come in contact with other children, and when they mistreat you. You know, and call you n***er. But it worked out somehow.
TRYPETUS: Those children that you used to babysit, have you seen them grow up? CATHERINE: Yeah, and a lot of them passed on.
SHIRLEY: Not a lot of them. I mean, you still see them. She’s asking you about the children—not your school-age children, the children that you taught in Sunday school. When you see them now, and they talk to you. Talk about the lady that we know, who was throwing food in the cafeteria.
CATHERINE: Yes. I was at a meeting one time, and a lady got up and said, “She changed my life!” Because she said, “I used to throw bread, and she talked to me and changed my life.” And of course it made me feel good because it was at Durham High. And then I worked with a boy, and he didn’t want his parents to know what he said to me. SHIRLEY: That was a positive. She was a mentor to this young man, and he just felt that he could come talk to her. And it wasn’t anything bad, but you know sometimes it’s like “Oh my mom did this…”. He could come and talk to her. I guess he was really impressed with how she advised him on it, where he could talk to her instead of maybe a family member at that time. Even now, he keeps in contact with her. So that’s what she’s saying.
SHIRLEY: And then the food incident was, she worked in the cafeteria at the Durham schools. This young lady, years after she had really retired, came up saying how she had influenced her because she used to throw food or be acting out in the cafeteria, and how Mother was kind with her and talked to her about that.
CATHERINE: But I had run into an incident one time where one of the persons Black like me worked in the cafeteria. She went to the manager and told the manager to fire me because I work too slow. And the manager told me what she said, and said, “I’m not going to fire you. You work at a perfect speed. Your speed is alright for the line.” And so, I wouldn’t even know the person if she walked in here now. But I just went on doing my job. Sometimes when we get things from the whites, you get it from your own folks too.
SHIRLEY: A lot of change you want to talk about over here is now gentrification. Not this neighborhood, but even in her North Durham neighborhood. It’s completely changed over there. So, you know, and that's good and bad too.
TRYPETUS: Can you talk more about the gentrification, and has it ever discouraged you from staying in this house?
CATHERINE: No. At my age, I don’t remember like I used to. And then the only thing I don’t like is staying in here by myself. I don’t know people. SHIRLEY: That goes back to the community. You used to know your neighbors, but now we don’t.
CATHERINE: You gotta be careful who you deal with. But with my daughter for protection, I can make it.
TRYPETUS: So that kind of leads into my next question. Is there anybody in this community that has grown with you, and that you feel like you can still go talk to about how it was before?
CATHERINE: No, because I don’t know the people in the community. There’s nobody in this house (the neighboring house). A lady bought it, but she doesn’t live here. And that one over there, I don’t know her.
SHIRLEY: The most would be the man around the corner, Mr. Rose.
CATHERINE: Yeah, one man around the corner. He was Mr. Rose’s son. He was a real nice man. My husband used to do lawn mowers in the yard, and he came by here and talked with me not long ago, but I don’t know. So I don’t know who to trust in your house and who not to trust.
TRYPETUS: Okay, so I see that you have a lot of pictures.
CATHERINE: [laughs] I got a big family.
TRYPETUS: You met Barack Obama?
CATHERINE: Her brother married twice so he got two sets of children, and we just got a big family.
TRYPETUS: Can you talk about when you met Barack Obama?
SHIRLEY: It was at the rally in Raleigh or Chapel Hill—that was when he was campaigning. When he had an outdoor rally there, we were able to… He was on the stage, and for some reason we got up-close seats, so she got to meet him there. And when Hillary Clinton was here campaigning, and I’m not sure whether this was when she was campaigning for him or for herself at that time, they had an event over at Hillside or NCCU. I didn't go, she went. Somebody took her, and she got to meet her there.
SHIRLEY: And then you can see the various [images]. This is from Congressman Butterfield, she met him several times. Okay, that was when he was a congressman, and he recently retired about two years ago, I think. And then even on the local level, that’s Mr. Larry Kissell. He was over in Raleigh. So, they’re good friends. Like for President Obama, when he was in the White House we were planning a family group visit to the White House, but something about the communication got changed and by that time he was out of office and we couldn’t go the next time. We didn’t make the effort to go to the White House after that next presidency. So we were scheduled to do that. Like, voting is one of her main things, she says. She didn’t say it, but she has voted in every election since she’s been eligible to vote. And she instills in all of us to go vote.
CATHERINE: And my husband was an usher at his church.
SHIRLEY: Yeah, he was one of the founding fathers of that church, Lincoln Memorial.
TRYPETUS: You mentioned that you were, or are, in the National Council for Negro Women. Can you talk more about your experience there, your experience in the NCNW?
SHIRLEY: So now she doesn’t attend as much that way—they have it virtual. But when she was really active, she would go to the meetings, and that’s where I was telling you they’d bring all that information—they’d have a host of information. So she has… The NCNW, Mama, that’s what she’s talking about now. NCNW. Wherever she goes, she sees the members. She keeps her dues current. We sometimes get on virtual, we don’t do as much as we need to, but we do. And go to their meetings when they have them. They had a session at the library, that was last year, though. They had an outing where they went to the senior citizens’ center, and as a group they looked at the movie Hidden Figures. When they do activities like that, then she’s active to go. Now that’s an organization that, like I said, they would share a lot of information. She would go to the meetings and always come back with all these papers or handouts that they would give her, and tell us about this information that they would have. So, that’s all we know about that.
TRYPETUS: Okay. Is there anything else you would like us to know at Preservation Durham about your community or your upbringing that we haven’t discussed?
SHIRLEY: Anything else you [Catherine] want to tell them about the community or your upbringing?
CATHERINE: Yeah, I guess that’s about all. I can’t think right now. And the Lamplighters, down in East Durham, and all when I stayed down there, and I was the secretary.
SHIRLEY: And over here I guess they’re advocating for the newer streets, sidewalks, the bumpy roads. Even with the organization—when we met at the library.
CATHERINE: Now since I moved from down there, they’ve done more.
TRYPETUS: What are the Lamplighters? Is it a club, organization?
SHIRLEY: It was a club.
CATHERINE: A neighborhood club. Where we’d get together and plan things, then take them to the city council to vote on them or whatever.
TRYPETUS: Were you involved in the NAACP at all?
CATHERINE: I’d go to meetings, but I was not particularly an officer or something. T
RYPETUS: Okay. What would you hope that preservationists understand from your perspective? SHIRLEY: The Preservationist Society. That's the…trying to preserve neighborhoods, and houses, and all of that. So, what would you like to comment about that?
SHIRLEY: Well, we want to commend one group of preservationists because they came and did some floor work. One of her floors was—something was wrong with the floors. They came and did that work. That was about two, three years ago now. So that was a part of, I wouldn’t say the one you (Trypetus) work with, but it was one of the preservation groups. With Ms. Melva, I don’t know her last name.
TRYPETUS: Maybe not. Preservation Durham is more of wanting to know about the history of the communities.
SHIRLEY: Okay, so this was another group. Okay.
TRYPETUS: Yes. I want to ask a few more questions.
CATHERINE: Playfully Have you learned anything?
SHIRLEY: See we don’t—you know, like I said, most of her younger days were in Warsaw. And then coming to Durham, it was in East Durham—that’s about the Lamplighters Club. You know, where they did that. And then moving to North Durham. So then that was more community, and family, and church there.
CATHERINE: And I still got my land where I was born, and I’m as old as I am. I have not gotten rid of it. It’s in Warsaw.
SHIRLEY: So we understand the value, or we want to preserve that which they worked so hard for. It’s kind of hard, you know, keeping it up. It’s hard with the taxes. It’s hard with some of the restrictions that preservation has on you. So we just hope that a generation—some generation—will be in a position to maintain it and keep it and then continue to pass it on.
TRYPETUS: Have you seen a lot of interaction between students at NCCU and this community on Fayetteville Street?
SHIRLEY: Well, we know about the voting. We do know that—I know I’ve seen that. I know that there is a group that works really hard—well, was—with the pastor at St. Joseph because they would do the walk to the polls. You said “Soar to the Polls”.
TRYPETUS: Soar to the Polls, walk to the polls?
SHIRLEY: So they would do—in fact St. Joseph would take a Sunday after service, and they would go there and a lot of students would be there with them. That’s the St. Joseph down the street, so that was…I know that they do that. I don’t know, I’m sure there are some other things that they do. I know there’s an NCNW youth group at Central.
TRYPETUS: Yes.
SHIRLEY: And we keep up with the other service activities, you know, online. Online we see the other activities that NCCU students do, so, you know.
TRYPETUS: Yes, okay well. Thank you so much for letting me interview you. This was very insightful and I loved hearing your perspective about the community and your upbringing. Yes, this was very nice. Thank you both!
SHIRLEY: Laughs I know we didn’t have as much information historically that you want.
TRYPETUS: It’s okay. Yes, a lot of stuff changes over time.
SHIRLEY: But the community is blessed, and that’s what I was going to say. The community is blessed. You have to sometimes look at what we do have. You know, they’re blessed to have Lincoln Community Hospital, you know and that was where her (Ms. Catherine Ferrell) oldest—no her oldest daughter wasn’t born there. Who was born there? Margaret wasn’t born there, no she was born in Warsaw. I wasn’t born there, I was born in—but anyway, she had an affiliation with Lincoln Community Hospital. You know, and it provides—even now it provides a service for people that…I don’t know it’s almost like a clinic that you could go to instead of the hospital or whatever. So that’s a major plus for the community.
SHIRLEY: Stanford L. Warren is a major plus. I went to a session yesterday on wheels and the room was packed. And so that’s another, you know, staple for the community. Then we have the W.D. Hill Community Center, and then we’re blessed with Central. Of course, North Carolina Central, and also the site for Hillside. I’m just so glad that Hillside…that Central was able to get the Hillside property. Hillside school was, do you know?
TRYPETUS: Hillside, isn’t it when you continue down?
SHIRLEY: Yeah, the new one! But originally Hillside School was, what is that building over there that’s NCCU?
CATHERINE: And my oldest daughter went to Hillside.
SHIRLEY: Yeah, and we’re so blessed that that stayed within the Black community—or within the community. Not that some developer was to go there and build some units, that Central was able to get that property and make it a part of their, I think, science building or something. Whatever that building is.
TRYPETUS: Yes. Are you talking about the BRITE building? Or the new one that they just made?
SHIRLEY: Not that one, the one behind that. That’s on—the behind it. Lawson Street, but it’s to the right.
TRYPETUS: Right? And it’s a parking lot?
SHIRLEY: Part of it’s a parking lot, but there’s a Central building there. I don’t know if that’s the science building or the math building or what building.
TRYPETUS: There is a math and sciences building there, wow! (Mary Townes Science Building)
SHIRLEY: Yeah, so that used to be Hillside.
TRYPETUS: Okay. SHIRLEY: Yeah, that used to be Hillside. So then Hillside, you know, moved farther down.
CATHERINE: Yes, where my oldest daughter went to school. SHIRLEY: And her older daughter went to Central. TRYPETUS: Yes, eagle pride.
SHIRLEY: Yes, and I went to Central.
TRYPETUS: Yes, eagle pride again!
SHIRLEY: And my daughter went to Central.
TRYPETUS: Yes! Eagle pride again!
SHIRLEY: And her son is getting ready to go to early college at Central.
TRYPETUS: Wow.
SHIRLEY: If he gets accepted. She’s applied, so we’re hoping for all of that.
TRYPETUS: That’s good, that’s good.
SHIRLEY: And my sister—she’s really my niece—but my mama raised her. My sister, she went to Central. She’s a teacher now.
TRYPETUS: At Central?
SHIRLEY: No, she’s not a teacher at Central, but she’s a teacher. Yeah, so we’re eagles all the way.
TRYPETUS: Yes, we love the eagle pride.
SHIRLEY: That's right. So, that’s like I said. The community has that. The library, W.D. Hill, Lincoln Community Health Center, and then we have the funeral home here. We used to have another one—Scarborough, it used to be down there. And then we have the schools. We got W.G. Pearson School, elementary, and then we got Fayetteville Street School. Yeah, so those are landmarks for the community.
TRYPETUS: So Fayetteville Street Elementary has been there for quite some time and it has some history?
SHIRLEY: Oh, yeah. I don’t know how long, but I know my daughter went there. She’s now 28—20-something. So she went there. So yeah, it’s good.
TRYPETUS: Nice, nice.
SHIRLEY: Yes. So are you from Durham?
TRYPETUS: I’m from Charlotte, but I just go to NCCU.
SHIRLEY: Oh okay, the Queen City. We love Charlotte.
TRYPETUS: Yes, we do. It’s very nice there, but I did not want to stay there for college.
SHIRLEY: So this was the next best place, that’s right.
TRYPETUS: Yeah, Central. I really like it.
SHIRLEY: That’s good. Congratulations to you on your project. I know we may not have had as much information. Now, someone who really has information, you know, is Ms. Denise Hester.
TRYPETUS: How do you spell that?
SHIRLEY: Okay, her name is Denise, D-E-N-I-S-E. Hester, H-E-S-T-E-R. Now she, and her daughter, and her husband opened up that restaurant right up there. Nzinga’s, N-Z-I-N-G-A-S. She now—because she’s over one of the community organizations for Hayti.
TRYPETUS: Okay, thank you.
SHIRLEY: Yeah, and then always Mr. Burthey right across the street. Burthey Funeral Home. He would love to talk to you. He has a wealth of information. Mr. Burthey, B-U-R-T-H-E-Y. You can tell him Catherine Ferrell sent you over there because they’re friends. Even with Ms. Hester, they’re friends. So those are the two that we know. And then even at the library would be Mr. Carter G. He has a wealth of information. In fact, when we went to the community meeting I keep mentioning about two months ago, they gave a great presentation about the history of this area. So his name is Carter G. And I guess his last name—we call him Carter G. I don’t know if his last name is G, but if you call the Stanford Library, he does something there so they can tell you. You can tell him Catherine Ferrell sent you up there too.
TRYPETUS: Stanford Library?
SHIRLEY: Stanford Library. Oh, Stanford L. Warren Library. The library on the corner of Fayetteville and Umstead. So those are good resources. Carter G., Ms. Hester, Mr. Burthey, and there’s probably more. But those are the main ones.
TRYPETUS: Thank you, I am set.
SHIRLEY: And they can give you the real history. And then another one would be Ms. Queen Scarborough.
TRYPETUS: Queen Scarborough…Queen Scarborough.
SHIRLEY: Yeah, she was Skippy Scarborough’s wife. Now he would really know—they would take you all the way back to the beginning of Mutual, because their family was responsible for that, to this community here, to where it was really developed and how it changed over time.
TRYPETUS: I think we interviewed Mrs. Scarborough. Is she a Delta?
SHIRLEY: I think she’s an AKA. Pink and green, right? TRYPETUS: Give me one second, that name sounds very familiar. I’m going to look and see.
SHIRLEY: Okay.
TRYPETUS: But I think we’ve interviewed her for another project. It was for another project.
SHIRLEY: Yeah, she’s really good. She or her daughter, yes. But if you do the Hesters, because they are over one of the Hayti projects. Mr. Burthey right there, Mr. Carter G. at the library, and then they can…they really got the history from the old community to now.
TRYPETUS: May I ask what Mrs. Queen Scarborough does in her career?
SHIRLEY: She was the principal of Fayetteville Street School. And then, she’s now the director of Scarborough Funeral Home. They were in this community, but because of urban renewal they had to move. They had to, you know, sell the land or whatever, then they came back to the community at a smaller place. But now they are at…
TRYPETUS: Yes, her. Shows Ms. Shirley a picture of Queen Scarborough.
SHIRLEY: Yes, Mrs. Queen Scarborough.
TRYPETUS: They interviewed her before (CLEOPATRA Project).
SHIRLEY: That’s her name, Queen Scarborough. She is our queen laughs. Yes, she is a good person to know.
TRYPETUS: Well, yes. Thank you for all of your answers, they were really insightful. I will be in contact to send you the transcript to look over it. And yes, thank you!
SHIRLEY: I didn’t mean to talk—I did not mean to be in the interview, but these are just things that I’ve heard her say previously and before. TRYPETUS: Oh, you’re good. Very, very helpful, thank you. Nice meeting you, again. I will be in contact.
SHIRLEY: Oh, and one thing she got—here is her award. She was just awarded in October, the highest award in North Carolina, the Order of the Long Leaf Pine. Because she’s the oldest living in North Carolina.
TRYPETUS: Yes, that’s amazing!
CATHERINE: Laughter
SHIRLEY: Yes, so thank you. Can I get a picture of you and her? TRYPETUS: Yes, absolutely.
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