Burthey Jr., Grover

Interviewee(s): Grover Burthey and Pamela Burthey                                                                                                           Interviewed by: Trypetus Gibson                                                                                                                                                             Date of Interview: May 12, 2026                                                                                                                                                             Location of Interview: Burthey Funeral Service, Durham, North Carolina                                                                                               Duration of Interview: 1:01:47 

TRYPETUS: Today we're recording an oral history with Grover and Pamela Burthey, legacy property owners and known community members in Durham's Fayetteville Street Historic Corridor. This interview is part of a project to document personal experiences, community history, and the role of community in shaping the corridor over time. There are no right or wrong answers. Please share only what you feel comfortable discussing. We're especially interested in your memories, perspectives, and hope for the future. So, now, beginning with the questions, can you tell the story of how the Burthey funeral home began, and what inspired your family to establish it on Fayetteville Street in 1946? 

GROVER: Okay, I am, as you mentioned, Grover Burthey Junior. So, my father started the funeral business here on Fayetteville Street, because his mother, and we refer to her as Mama Susie, but Susie, full name Susie Kirkland Burthey, she had this, it was a house in this location. Over the years, there have been maybe four different renovations to the building it is now, but the old structure, the original old structure, is still here. We've just added around it. So this very room we're sitting in is one of the, is part of the original structure, and upstairs is an apartment I grew up in until I was 10 years old. 

And so my dad went to, was from Durham and went to college at West Virginia State, and he studied art. He was an art major, and he was a gifted artist and a sculptor. But he figured that the only thing he could do with that was teach art, and he wanted to be in business. So as he was working his way through college one summer, he saw a funeral procession. I believe he was working in Detroit on the Great Lakes. They sat cruises on the Great Lakes, they still do. Anyhow, he saw a funeral service, and somehow they said that's what I want to do, you know. He saw a funeral procession, maybe observed a funeral, and something got him for that. And so he finished West Virginia State, and then he enrolled at Eckels College of Mortuary Science in Philadelphia, very popular school, one of the old embalming schools. There were about three old embalming schools: Eckels in Philly, Cincinnati College of Mortuary Science, where I went. And then there was one up in New York, I think, America, something like that. And anyhow, he went there, he worked his way through there. That course was 12 months straight through eight to five.  

He went to class the same that I did when I went through it, and then he came back to Durham, and his mom, Mama Susie, said, "Well, okay, I tell you what, you go on and just, here you can have this property and you do your best, so that's how we came to own this property. She had previously rented out rooms to professors who were teaching at Central, because you can think in those days you wouldn't really have tenure, you might have a contract to come teach for a semester, and you need a place to stay, because you may be a teacher from someplace else. So she rented rooms here in the house for professors, and so he came, and then began to plan to open the business. Meanwhile, though, he taught art at Hillside High School for a few years, maybe one or two or three, and opened up the business, and that's how we got here to Fayetteville Street, and we have been in the same address ever since. Yeah, it's great.  

Now, of course, you know, with Central being the anchor that always has made Fayetteville Street a very important street. And once upon a time, instead of Lincoln Clinic, we had Lincoln Hospital, and W.D. Hill was still there. Lincoln School of Nursing was right around the corner from the hospital. Various doctors had their offices along this area into what was called Hayta, so the area was a great area, and we did not have to move when they had urban renewal. A lot of two or three funeral homes did have to move during the urban renewal in the late 70s, mid late 70s, but we were always able to hold on to this location. They didn't move us, they didn't ask us to move, it didn't come this far up, it came as far as where the street gets wide, and that's so it narrows down right at the stoplight, where the library is about two blocks, that four blocks that way. 

TRYPETUS: Okay.

GROVER: So when it all of a sudden goes to four lanes, two lanes coming and going, that's urban renewal. 

TRYPETUS: Okay. 

GROVER: And when it, the two-lane party comes on to us, for that's that never changed. Yeah.

TRYPETUS: Okay. What was Durham's Black business community like at that time? 

GROVER: Sure, at that time, because of the hospital, we had a lot of doctors who came to Durham to do residency and to just be a doctor. We had the law school at Central, so you had students studying law, and then we had the nursing school at Lincoln Hospital, so we had students study in nursing, and we had a place called Deshazor's Beauty College, where a lot of sisters came from all over, men and women came from all over everywhere to study cosmetology, hairdressing. It was very well known. It had a dormitory as well, and so then, of course, you know, Durham had the bank, Mechanics and Farmers Bank, which had a branch down the street, and then North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company, which had a branch down the street, and so Black businesses were everywhere.  

I don't think we had to shop, you know. Well, I guess obviously we had to go to white stores sometimes, but in terms of doctors and all, all my doctors were always Black pediatricians, obstetricians, everybody, and I was born at Lincoln Hospital, and the only time I had a surgery, I had my tonsils taken out, that was at Lincoln Hospital, but folks were going to Duke in those days, but I always had, I always went to Lincoln. Lincoln closed in maybe 76 or so, but any kind of business you can think of - the grocery stores, shoe shops, nightclubs, restaurants - there weren't too many clothing stores, I don't think in Hayti, but definitely two movie theaters and a hotel, yeah, restaurants, as I mentioned, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I used to go to movies every Saturday, so in terms of a lot of times you hear folks talking about they couldn't go to the White, or they'd sit up in the back, and we didn't care, because we had our own to go to, so one stayed long in a Regal Theater, another was, I think, Ambassador, some, but Ambassador became a church when I was very, very young, so I never went there for movies, but the Regal Theater was there, gosh, as long as I can remember, I guess, until the 70s, and so I can definitely recall all those kinds of spots.  

I mean, other kinds of bleeding, beauty supply, house stores, pharmacy. Dr. Garrett lived next block, and so he had his pharmacy in the lobby of the hotel. The hotel is called the Biltmore Hotel, and so, yeah, you can get your drugs from Dr. Garrett at the Biltmore Pharmacy in the lobby of the Biltmore Hotel. He had the typical thing you see in the movies, the, you could get sodas and the whole stand, the counter lunch counter type set up. Yeah, so it was thriving, and a lot of like I say, it's because we had Central, and in the 60s we also got Durham Business College, which was very well known, and there again students came from everywhere to go to that, mostly North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina. Yeah, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia. And so, absolutely, restaurants and cafes, nightclubs, stores, churches, bank, all those things were within walking, it's within 10 blocks. Yeah. 

TRYPETUS: You inherited not just a business, but a major piece of Durham's Black history. What did it feel like growing up around Burthey Funeral service? And when did you realize the funeral home was. Something bigger than a family business. 

GROVER: Sure, obviously, you, you, my dad grew up in what's called "The Bottom", and so you, there's a whole history about that, I guess one of the projects would touch on, and of course, the main employer was, the two, the main employer were the two tobacco factories, or there are more than two, but Liggett and Myers and American, so they were jobs that Blacks and whites worked together at the factories. You had Golden Belt, you had many other tobacco companies. And so you had a working-class community, in terms of generally you had folks who could work at the factory, you had school teachers, because we had North Carolina College educators. Had a lot of lawyers, because we had a law school and doctors, and so a funeral home serves everybody, so you serve professionals, you serve working class folks, poor folks, middle class folks in the country, in the city, and so you get to know a lot of folks. My dad, being not only a homeboy, he wasn't born here, but he grew up here, and then he was a teacher here, and he was well thought of.  

His mother, Mama Susie, ran a cafe. She was an entrepreneur. She had a cafe as well, and she maybe had, and then she had a little store too, a little neighborhood store. So she was well known, and so that gave him an opportunity to serve folks that kind of knew him growing up and knew his mama. Me growing up upstairs, definitely, as you, yeah, I guess you can can intimate then the question, if you grow up upstairs in the business, you, you're always around the business, yeah, so you see people coming and going, you hear conversations, you realize that it is a business that people have respect for. 

My dad also went to law school at Central, graduated law school, and he did that because so many questions come up during the service of a funeral. You know, what am I going to do now? What about insurance? What about property? What about this? What about that. So he said, you know, he was a block away from the law school, so he said he just decided to just walk down there and take some classes, and he actually graduated. He never practiced law, but the main thing was he wanted to be able to kind of hold their hand through the process, and people really began to appreciate that more and more over the time too, because they knew not only he could help with the funeral, but after the funeral they could come back and ask him questions, and he could help them fill out papers, tell them what not to do and what not to say, and how to handle, how to handle themselves after the funeral.  

So I just saw him having a lot of folks coming through, asking questions, so obviously he was very well respected, and thought of. My mama was a school teacher that everybody loved, so between the two of them they had a lot of respect in the community, and I grew up around that, yeah, I grew up around that, and you're right. You realize it's more than a business, per se. You realize you're serving families, and you're serving them at a tough time. And so that I'm sure it made an effect on me. I won't say that I grew up saying I was going to be a undertaker, whatever, but I was an only child. My mom wanted to have more kids, but she couldn't. So I have said later that I'm thankful that I well, did go to get my license and everything, because they both worked really, really hard, and it'd be a shame, at least if it could keep going a little while longer, and so we, my wife, when she and I married, my dad really, really, really just saw something in her, he said, "You're a natural, you can really run this business. He had trained under women when he in this funeral business part of the training, and it still exists today. You can't get a license until you served an apprenticeship at a funeral home, so they still have the old school apprenticeship requirement that even lawyers used to. A lot of professionals used to have it, but you can't even get the license until after you do an apprenticeship. So he was in Philadelphia, and he worked for a woman-owned company, and he always respected women in the business after that, because he, he just always, he realized then that in this business, the right kind of woman has a real advantage in terms of basically relationshiporiented, again, depending on the woman, and then just, just having that perspective, maybe more empathetic, more talkative, maybe more patient, all those kinds of things.  

And my wife is from rural North Carolina, in the county, and she grew up in a big, big family, so she's very comfortable around all kinds of folks, because she grew up among all kinds of people, so he really, really, really encouraged her to go into the business, and it's true, she is much better at it than me. So we sort of have a two-prong thing, I do the embalming, I do a lot of embalming, and I do a lot of that kind of stuff, and she interacts more with the people now. You know, obviously I can, but she's better at it, so that's a good thing. Yeah.

TRYPETUS: Okay. You kind of touched on this a little with your dad, and how he went to law school, how he graduated from law school. But your family has worn many hats in Durham: morticians, educators, photographers, attorneys, entrepreneurs, and civic leaders. How do those different position, professions shape the identity of the funeral home? 

GROVER: Oh the funeral home. Sure, the good thing is we've been able to stay in this location. I've always appreciated being near Central, and that's just a unique thing that happened. Yeah, and I just, I think Central is the treasure of Durham. I mean, we hear a lot about companies in old Hayti and whether you want to talk about the Mutual or the Bank and Cancer Funds, but I think North Carolina Central is the jewel in all of this. I mean, that's the thing we have always thought we ought to brag about more and promote more, and the history of Central, and obviously a whole lot of folk that Central turned out, so the whole atmosphere of being in a town where you just had, you had PhDs, because you had to have professors at the school, so you just had doctors, lawyers, whether they be MDs or PhDs or attorneys, then you had folks in business, and you had people working at the factory, so it was a nice working town, you had, you had all, you had even if you had working-class folks, they were working their way in the middle class, and so, and it was possible, and it happened over and over again. So, ask the question again, I may have gotten off track. 

TRYPETUS: How do those different professions shape the identity of the funeral home? 

GROVER: Sure. Well, even still now, my wife and I, because we're in this location too, it makes it easy for people to just stop by, and so we're on the main track, and so we have a constant flow of folks who come by for whatever reason, because they even though we've always had the reputation of being able to help folks outside of funeral, you know, answering questions, like I said, my dad started it, then I was a law school as well, so people feel comfortable stopping by here and just asking questions, especially families you serve, and so I mean, it can be totally something totally random, like I need a power of attorney, or I need to.. I got some property, I got a question about property, and even if I don't professionally serve them, I can at least point them in the right direction, tell them how to do it, what to do. Sometimes they'll come by and say, I'm talking to so and so, is he.. is he telling me the truth? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're telling you the truth, because you're right, I look at answering those questions more of an extension of serving them in the funeral business, and not so much as trying to get them in here to pay me for that.  

The legal profession, the law bar in North Carolina Bar, requires so many pro bono hours a year, so I'm all, I mean, I don't have any problem getting pro bono hours, because I'm always giving out legal advice and not worrying about charging people for it, and so, as part of that, my dad was always thought to be very professional. How he dressed, I think the service, the funerals he started wearing former wear, so he always did that, and because he was educated, and my mom was really, she was a Bennett graduate, and very reserved. Her daddy, my grandfather, was the first African American dentist in Chapel Hill, so she was a Kirkland, he was Dr. George Kirkland, and so he, so her family was well thought of in Chapel Hill, and so, and then Dr. Kirkland became a charter member of the graduate chapter of Omega Psi Phi here in Durham, which my dad was Omega Psi Phi, and I am too.  

So we're three generations in Beta Phi. The Beta Phi grad chapter, and so my grandfather was actually one of the charter members, and he died unfortunately before I was born, but well thought of, and so that's been, that's been kind of neat as well, that the Omega bloodline is strong, and I'm the only one that can claim three generations in Beta Phi, so I've got a, I've got three sons, so one of them will be fourth, I'm sure. And that's a good thing, that's a good thing. So all of that sort of has continued to, as you say, impact us, or have some kind of outgrowing of us, and so that's what... put that on pase let me see what she (Pamela Burthey) has been able to find. 

TRYPETUS: Your family has worn many hats in Durham: morticians, educators, photographers, attorneys, entrepreneurs, and civic leaders. How did those different professions shape the identity of the funeral home? 

GROVER: Wow, I've already expounded a bit. 

PAMELA: Okay I think probably just really learning how to interact with all people, it gives you a sense of who people are, what they want, what they need, and I don't think you can take anything away from that. 

TRYPETUS: Thank you. 

GROVER: All right, I'm good. 

TRYPETUS: You talked to a lot about serving the community, and that answer kind of segues into what is your family's definition of serving the community historically and now? 

PAMELA: I guess it always comes back to family when you particularly at what this part of what we do, you are communicating and interacting with people at a time when they're at their probably most emotional and being able to establish relationships during that time is, you get to know people in a different way, you really do. 

GROVER: What was that again? The question again? I'm sorry.

TRYPETUS: How did your family define serving the community? 

GROVER: Another thing that my wife and I got from my dad, he, he had a mind of, and again maybe it was because what he had seen up north, and he wanted to emulate a couple of undertakers he saw in Philadelphia, and so he always wanted to be very professional. Carry yourself a certain way, and sort of almost military, militarily, but he wasn't a military guy, but he, he had an air about him, and he did things, and he had success at it, and we frankly, have carried on. We've not really changed any of the way he did things, because he did them in a way that still gets compliments.

The, one of the compliments that we seem to get eight out of 10 times from people who come in from out of town, anywhere from local folks, it's like you guys are the most professional. You guys are so professional, and we Pam and I laugh because we can't take the credit for that. We just do it the way we were taught by him, and so that, and whatever that means, I think a lot of times it means things are done decent and in order, timely. My old man would say, right, you don't do it this way because this is the right way to do it. You look at even the attire, you may notice it's not so much in America, but even when the Queen died, that's what they wore.  

Now, when Kennedy died, they wore the tuxedo hickory stripe pants, that's called Day Formal, and the Day Formal is worn a lot in funerals in Britain, for definitely for higher ups, but again, every now and then you see it in America, and I know at the Kennedy funeral, John Kennedy, the president, when he died, his all his brothers walked behind the caisson or the horse- drawn carriage with the casket on it, and they all had on Day Formal wear, and every now and then you see it, so he would see things like that and say that's the way you need to do it, because that's, that's basically, that's the way the most famous folk do it, and it doesn't get all crazy going sideways, and it's not a, it's not a production like that, it's more or less trying to make sure that things are right. I always use the example that, well, so many things going on that we know what to look for, but folks, family is just caught up in the emotion of it. Even me when my folks died, I mean, I don't even remember the funeral, you know, but we just try to pay attention to so many details to make sure that everything is going like it should go, you know. Time? 

TRYPETUS: No, I had to make sure it was going. The funeral home has witnessed enormous changes in Durham, especially along Fayetteville Street and in Hayti. From your perspective, what are the biggest changes you have seen in the neighborhood over the years? 

GROVER: Well, the neighborhood, I guess I would say that I don't see the students as much as we used to, you know. Obviously, this day and age, more people have cars, they live off campus, and they don't walk up and down because they used to have places to walk to. Yeah, and I'm not, I'm sure, whatever they tell you on campus, that's part of it, and that's part of what the city is, I guess, a parallel kind of project going on is this whole Fayetteville Street beautification, and so forth, and I definitely will say that, obviously, we have a lot of boarded up houses, you know, between here and the freeway. And I don't make it a, I don't shout it from the rooftop, but when I talk to folks who do whatever they call it, neighborhood improvement, neighborhood beautification, so forth, I always tell them, you know, I got a real issue with the fact that if I'm bringing my daughter, you, from Charlotte, and I drive down Fayetteville Street, I might not like what I see. And if I'm a parent that Central is trying to convince that that's where the daughter ought to come, and that the dad's gonna have to pay some money, and mom's got to pay some money, that frankly speaking, Central is the one that needs to help Durham clean it up. The central has the power, they are a state university, they have, but they just, they need a vice chancellor, and it makes it their business to go to all the city council meetings and clean it up.  

The good news is it's about to be done, so after many, many years of planning and so forth. This year I do believe that Fayetteville Street will finally address all of these boarded up houses that are still here, so obviously that's, that's something that...I'm so used to it that it doesn't really. It bother me, but as I say, if I drive to another little country town, or a little town, Durham ain't nothing but a country town, you know, it masquerades as a city, but it's basically a little country town. But when I go to other places and I drive through them, I say, "Oh man, I wonder how people think when they drive through Durham, and especially coming to Central to drop off their beautiful daughter like you, so I'm glad you came. I'm glad your daddy didn't turn around and go back, take you someplace else. 

TRYPETUS: Yeah, I had to do some convincing. Yeah. 

GROVER: Exactly. Unfortunately, we, the neighborhood, I guess in that regard we need to, but that's not anything [inaudible]. I'm doing my part. Our building is very uniquely very unique. Everybody sees it, Black and white, we serve white families too. And they always just impressed. Well, that's my dad. He was an artist, so he sort of designed it, and nobody would use this kind of block on a building, and you don't even see that block anywhere else, you'll never see it. He got it from some... 

TRYPETUS: I love this. 

GROVER: He ordered it from somewhere else, and he wanted the... He didn't want it to look like a funeral home. Again, he said, "You serve all kinds of people" so we don't need pulpits and crosses, because we might serve some Buddhist and some Hindus, and, and we have, and you have, and then we have a space that's he didn't want pews attached to the floor, because he said then you can configure the space in different kinds of configurations. So we have done that, sometimes folks might want it in a circle, or whatever, depending on their preference. Then we have a kitchen down there, because there, again, we could even do a repass here. We've done that, so all of that was his thinking to make, make it unique, special, professional, and full service for families, and so that's been a real blessing that we've been able to do that, but that was there again, Pam, and I can't take any credit for any of that, that was, all of this was his thinking, his vision, and thankfully it's a vision that we enjoy too, so we just were smart enough to get prepared and get our license and carry on. 

TRYPETUS: Another question regarding Fayetteville Street. What do you miss most about early Fayetteville? 

GROVER: All the girls walking up and down the street. [laughs] but there's nowhere for you guys to walk to now. They used to walk up and down the street, going to, as I say, the various restaurants, cafes, stores, beauty parlors, and all of that, so you don't have the foot traffic at all. But otherwise, but frankly, I'm sure you could say that for many towns and many cities, I'm sure Charlotte, you know, in old Charlotte, they don't have the foot traffic they used to have. In Greensboro, near A&T, probably don't have all the stuff, so that's just "progress", the age in which we live. But otherwise, Fayetteville Street, as long as Fayetteville Street has Central, I've always said that saves Fayetteville Street. You're right, without Central, I'm not sure what Fayetteville street would look like, because, as I say, we have enough, a few issues even with central. But central is, is the anchor, and it's the showpiece, and so I'm just thankful that, as I said, that we are near Central. And that I think has not changed. If anything, Central always has looked pretty. Great grounds crew, it's always kept nice flowers, and so forth. And now got the new union on Central on Fayetteville Street. So we've had, you know, Central is pretty. I enjoy driving through it, you know. I don't go Cecil Street, I always go Lawson Street. I like looking at the track, and it's like I just like Central. Grew up around it. Yeah, so I have seen the progress, and I'm happy about Central. So, as far as Fayetteville Street is concerned, in my mind, as long as it's got Central, you know, that saves Fayetteville Street. 

TRYPETUS: What schools did you go to? You mentioned you went to law school. What school did you go to? 

GROVER: Okay, cool. I went to Howard for two years, and then I went to embalming school. So I took, I got two years in, and I said, 'Let me go on and get my license and get that be done with it. And so I went to Howard the first two years. I didn't pledge at Howard, that's where Omega started. Is that where [Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Inc. started]? 

TRYPETUS: Yes. Yep. 

GROVER: Yeah. And you guys, around '14, 1914? 

TRYPETUS: 1920, January 16th, 1920, yes. 

GROVER: Okay, so I went to Howard, and then loved DC, loved Howard. And came back, went to went to Cincinnati to embalming school, and then when I came back from embalming school, I had to do my one year apprenticeship. So I transferred my credits from Howard to Duke, so I went on and finished at Duke, and got a degree from there, and then I, I went to Central for law school, not because, I mean, I went to UNC. And the reason that was very, it was very personal as well. As I said, my grandfather was the first African American dentist in Chapel Hill. Well, he's buried on UNC's campus. They have an old, the original cemetery in Chapel Hill is on, in the middle of UNC's campus, and they have a few Blacks there, you know, the first doctor, the first Black dentist, first Black doctor. I won't say that everybody who's, the Blacks that are buried there were all folks who might have been professionals, but it's only a small group of Blacks that are buried there, and my mama, you know, it was one of those things that nobody in the family from Chapel Hill was able to go to UNC, because in those days Blacks couldn't go there, and so that's my little way of letting my bloodline know that somebody from the family did graduate from UNC, and as I say, I actually have my grandfather buried on the campus, so my grandfather and my grandmother are buried, you know, on the campus.  

You can walk, you walk right by too. It's not, most of the cemetery, is well like most cemeteries, you know, you have a section, you don't have any reason to walk through it, but it just so happens that they have one sidewalk that goes to a dorm, and it, so if you divided up that cemetery in five parts, this last little 20% has a sidewalk where they had to split through the cemetery to get to another part of campus, and so when you walking on that sidewalk, his grave is right along that sidewalk. So you don't have to walk into the cemetery to find it. So, yeah, that's why I went there. So I went to UNC to law school, and plus, in those days too, when I was coming out of law school, my aunt, who lived over there, was real politically active. She was, she was the one that all the white folk were scared of Aunt Rebecca, so Aunt Rebecca wanted me to go there too, so show the white folks that we could go there. 

TRYPETUS: I know that's right. This building has housed much more than funeral services, photography, legal work, family gatherings, even space for grandchildren today. What stories do visitors often share when they come back here? 

GROVER: You're right. You said my uncle was a photographer, so his studio was straight down that hallway and dark room, and in his time too, that was before when Black photographers did all the Black schools. So like senior pictures in high schools, all the Black high schools, during days of segregation. You had Black photographers that came and did that, so you know, your senior photo, your senior would do eight by 10, your five by seven, your wallet size. He did all of that, and so there's one room where you were set about this size, went right behind that wall, where you had to set up in the studio, where you can take the pictures. The next, then he had bathrooms and dressing rooms. Then the next room was the dark room, and at the end of the hallway, there's another room about this size where we had the big drum to dry the pictures. And so I knew just as much about photography as a kid. I could go in the dark room and develop stuff into three little solutions, and then that area was the original chapel. It's a small chapel now, and so then we would all be in there putting those packages together for the students. You know, you have to get the little packages all together, right, all your little photos, and so forth. Also, at one point, there was a.. we were a Western Union stop-off. If you're familiar with Western Union, people used to send a lot of telegrams. 

TRYPETUS: Yes. 

GROVER: Yeah, you heard about Western Union telegrams? 

TRYPETUS: The money orders. 

GROVER: Yeah, well, they didn't do.. they might have done money orders then, but mostly it was telegrams. 

TRYPETUS: Okay. 

GROVER: And so we were a Western Union stop, I guess. We served this area for Black folks, so it's my fact. Recently, a guy posted on Facebook that he used to do, he used to work, he used to be one of the Western Union runners out of the building here, so that was some people we just saw that on that Facebook page. Denise was talking about he did the Western Union. She's talking about other things at the building, as I say, borders, many borders. We've had Miss Eva Clayton, she's the, whatever, you know, former, she's still the former representative. She actually stayed upstairs one year of her law school time, and that was right after my mom and dad moved out. I think we moved to a house in 63, four, somewhere in there, or 62, and so then other folks have stayed upstairs. What else have we heard about? I told her about Uncle Claudie, and all. 

PAMELA: Pretty much since we've been married it's been used solely for the law and for the funeral home. 

GROVER: Because this section, what my dad did was, the block that you see, it wrapped around the building, you see, because it goes down, so the old, the original building is the inner, we go out on the way out, it's a little walkway, it goes down from end to end. You almost go out the front door, anyway. The front of the old building, the new building went out about eight feet and wrapped around it with that block. So that was done in the early 80s. So since the early 80s, mid 80s, somewhere around 82 three, we've had that chapel, and we really haven't, as you say, we haven't had much other, nobody else like renting rooms like we used to. They used to do my day, used to say people stay upstairs, sometimes they needed to stay somewhere. So, over time, many folk have come and gone to those apartments upstairs, 

PAMELA: And we've had a couple of employees that stayed up there. 

GROVER: Yeah a couple employees stayed family members from time to time, so yeah, and then even we stayed up there once or twice in between moving, so yeah. 

TRYPETUS: Yeah that speaks a lot to why it's so community oriented, it speaks a lot to the other question about serving the community with the photography, working with the local schools, and allowing people to stay upstairs. Now I see why this place is so remarkable. 

GROVER: What was that thing we said about Claudie's picture? we just saw that too. We might, we can email that to you as well. They said something. He took a picture. Was it Martin Luther King? It was something. 

PAMELA: Oh, yeah.

GROVER: Yeah. We just saw it. We just found that out. 

PAMELA: Exactly. Was that on Denise's? 

GROVER: No, that was done on the package that, that the, that we got, that had a bunch of the historical stuff that I guess Julianne is... 

PAMELA: Yeah, we also have a huge amount of people that always come in telling stories about when they were younger and they lived in the area, how they would come in the funeral home. 

GROVER: Yeah 

PAMELA: It is just interesting. 

GROVER: It's sort of an upgrade kind of hangout, and see, my dad didn't drink or smoke, so it didn't become that kind of hangout, but guys did come by and feel comfortable just sitting around looking at TVs. It'd be a TV in that corner, and this was like an area where guys would sit around and professionals, I mean, the doctors, Mr. Weaver, on the dry cleaners, he always used to stop by. Dr. Jefferies had an optometry business, Mr. Jones. So, yeah, a lot of folks stopped by because my dad was always here, so you know it was like there again. We're on the main drag, so if you just come going home, most folks live somewhere off Fayetteville Street, they could, they just always say, "let me just stop by here and see how Burthey is doing", or something like that. So, we got a lot of folks that, and I was telling, they still do that. Yeah, that's one thing about Fayetteville Street. And if they're in, and say, say they come homecoming Central's homecoming, 

TRYPETUS: Homecoming. 

GROVER: Oh man, they'll stop by and say, "Man, y'all still here, I did this, I did that." So many folk have worked here, you know, like, you know, anything, driving a car for my dad, or... 

PAMELA: Answering the telephone, 

GROVER: Answering the telephone, right right right. 

PAMELA: Running errands. 

GROVER: Running errands. Yeah, because we didn't even know Bishop Timberlake's mama, she was going to Lincoln Nursing School down the street, ended up being... her son ended up being our pastor, and she said, "I used to answer the phone at the funeral when I was in nursing school", so you know it was like, yeah. 

PAMELA: And with that being said about the community, a lot of people, when they do stop like that, they will go on about "you burying my mother, my grandmother. My great grandfather, you buried", so it's always interesting. 

GROVER: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, that is definitely... She asked when I'm talking about being on Fayetteville Street, and that is definitely a major thing about us. We always have been on Fayetteville Street, and so people will stop by, and definitely folks who've moved away and come back home for whatever reason stop by, because it's so easy, they're gonna pass us anyway, so they just stop by. 

TRYPETUS: Yes, the next question goes to what I'm not sure if you were completely sure about the picture with MLK. The Burthey family was connected to important moments in Durham's civil rights history, including Claudie Burthey... 

GROVER: Okay, you got that. 

TRYPETUS: ...photography during Dr. King's 1960 Durham visit. How do you see the funeral home's place within Durham's larger Black history?

GROVER: Well, you, when you talk about entrepreneurship, and all we're blessed and thankful that we could carry on a business. A business. I don't care what kind of business it is, and we used to have a lot of lawyers who had their own office, a lot of doctors who had their own office, you know. Doctors now can't really run an office alone, they have to work under a hospital. The Perry boys, who just got the building down here by the freeway, Perry, Perry, and Perry Lawyers, they are one of the few Black law firms that still are independent, you know, still have their own building, and gosh, they might be the only other one that has their own building. 

But in terms of Black businesses owning buildings, whether you were shoe shine or shoe repair, whatever, we've come to appreciate, and thank God that we as a business have been able to stay two, three generations, because unfortunately you just don't get that a lot anymore, because we, as you can hear from Atlanta, maybe Charlotte, Washington DC, or Harlem, you know, you had those Black communities that had everything. And so we were one of those type communities that really did have everything, and as I always say, again, Central was a major part of that reason, and so we, as a funeral home...because, as you mentioned, my dad was part of the, he was got pictures of Durham Committee of Affairs of Black Folk. Then there was another one that still exists. The Durham Business and Professional Chain, NAACP, all those kinds of things. And if you're in business, I mean, if your business really is a real anchor of a lot of Black communities, especially when you get into generational. 

Now, you got a lot of new guys, they're just young and new, but if you start talking about third generation, second and third generation, then they do have stories that their daddy, like we got stories of my daddy from the 40s, 50s, and 60s. So before integration, and so forth, so you know, a lot of times, you have meetings here, you know, you got space to have meetings, people come by, want to get the limousine, for whatever reason, maybe even just to transport. Maybe pick up Dr. King, you know, just stuff like that. They figured a funeral home can help. 

PAMELA: We used to run the limousines for voting. We'd pick up people, take them, drop them off. It's also... 

GROVER: And that was expected, that was some tradition that was before our time, that we kept it going. 

PAMELA: Absolutely, and then to show up at career day, speak at schools, so it's also when people see you, whatever, at career day, or wherever you are, and to want to ask questions about just being self- employed, you know, having your own business, you get a chance to dispel a whole lot of, you know, whatever ideals that people think, you know, and also give them vision. You know. 

GROVER: Also I just really remember, too. You may know this, but you might not. Before the 70s, maybe in the middle of the 70s. Well, there again, another thing of segregation. If you nowadays you call ambulance, you get EMS. Okay, up until 70-ish, you could call a funeral home for an ambulance trip to the hospital. Yeah, funeral homes ran ambulance services, so the hearses that you had caskets in, they were convertible, and they called them combo hearses. Anyway, we had a stretcher, and you would push it in the hearse and clamp it to the side. We had a red light, we would put on the top, and we were an ambulance service. So, Black funeral homes served as ambulance service. I think we in Durham, it was pretty much us and Scarborough were the ones that did ambulance service. Scarborough and Hargett Funeral Home. 

TRYPETUS: Oh, is that related to... Queen Scarborough? 

GROVER: Yeah, yeah, she married the fourth generation Scarborough. Yeah, I think he was fourth. Was he fifth? Old man, Johnny, Skeepie, he might have just been third. Yeah, so anyway, that was another thing that funeral homes did in a lot of cities. They ran ambulance service, and so we, we did that until then, when integration came, or when they, the city... It must have been in the 70s, because you had a Black hospital in Lincoln, you had Watts Hospital, was the white hospital, where School of Math and Science is up on Ninth Street, Broad Street, Anyway, and Duke was private, so the public hospitals were segregated. Watts for whites and Lincoln's for Black. So in 75 they built Durham Regional, which is now Duke Regional, and it closed Watts and closed Lincoln, and that's when they integrated everything, and that's when they started ambulance service for everybody, yeah, that's that's when it started. That was like 70s. 

PAMELA: And then I guess one last thing from that question is, the community has a certain degree of confidence in you because you get to respond to different needs, just like I left a few minutes ago, because someone called and explained a problem that had nothing to do with the funeral home, but they wanted to know, "can they do that to me?" So you get the opportunity, because the community has confidence in you to help in so many different ways, you can't even imagine. I mean, you really can't even imagine, and I cannot begin to give you the whole scope of how you serve in the community, way beyond burying people. 

GROVER: Because, like I said, they've heard in the past "they might be able to answer that question. You call them", and its true. 

PAMELA: It could range from... 

GROVER: It could just be, yeah, it's.. it's kind of fun, because sometimes, you know, it's like, wow, okay, yeah. Let's see if we can help you. 

PAMELA: And I had one gentleman, he's an older gentleman. Every month, without fail, they would call me from the bank and say "he's in the bank, he says that you will vouch for him". I mean, every month, you know. So that is just the degree of your place in a community when you have established a degree of confidence and trust, you know, through serving the community. 

GROVER: Yeah, yeah, because they figure you're in business, so they figure businessmen can answer business type questions. 

PAMELA: Yeah. 

GROVER: That's true. 

TRYPETUS: Different, a wide range.

PAMELA: Oh yeah. 

TRYPETUS: Going back to civil rights activism, did your family discuss civil rights activism openly at home or at work? 

PAMELA: We still do. 

GROVER: Yeah, absolutely.

PAMELA: We still do. 

GROVER: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there was a time that... You do know the Durham Committee on Affairs for Black folk, that's the main political action committee that's always.. that's been in Durham for, I don't know, 50 years or whatever, more than that. But every election time, you know, they have meetings, they publish who they endorse, and so forth. We have, or my dad in particular, always might have had certain positions on it, but he was always friends with everybody on that committee, and so they would have a lot. I'll get to the point, they'd have a lot of subcommittee meetings here, even though the big meeting might be whenever it was, wherever it was, at any given time. Three or four would come here and have another meeting to get ready for the big meetings, because again, they knew my dad was pretty much here all the time, and he was on the main drag, and so it was informal. Or just a place that you could always, "hey, Burthey, can we come by there?" You know, "can we use your place for a few minutes", blah blah, kind of thing, you know, so that's also... and of course, a lot of those meetings. 

TRYPETUS: Okay, as Preservation Durham works to preserve this history, what do you most want future generations to understand about Burthey Funeral Service, and your family's contribution to Durham? 

PAMELA: What's very important to me, and I mention it all the time, is that it took vision and dedication, and a whole lot of work from my husband's grandmother.

 GROVER: I told her about Mama Susie. 

PAMELA: You know, it took a whole lot, and I think to be able to embrace those ideals because it was someone in your family that established something, and to continue to run with that vision and to hold on to that vision celebrates the legacy of Black people and how they have worked for everything that they have. And that's so important to me. You know, I just don't see this when I look at this. I see this as what generations did, and what they did at a time when it was so not easy. 

PAMELA: You know, it's so...it has value way beyond monetary. 

GROVER: Yeah. Because I was telling her how, when my dad got back from school, Mama Susie said, "Well, okay, then, well, yeah, let's do what you can, 

PAMELA: Yeah. 

GROVER: Gave him the building, yeah. 

PAMELA: And she was single, you know. So, yeah, 

GROVER: She was an entrepreneur, because I told her about her having a cafe in the corner store, as well as this place, where she did use...she lived here and rented rooms, but she let him run with his vision. Then, yeah.

TRYPETUS: How do you plan to keep this vision alive for future generations? 

GROVER: Well, we do have sons, and all three of them are business. Studied business, and one is in, as I mentioned, you have to do an apprenticeship to get your license, so he is in the apprenticeship program, or traineeship program with the State of North Carolina Funeral Service Board. So he will have his license. 

PAMELA: And he's bringing ideas. 

GROVER: Yeah, he's bringing ideas. 

PAMELA: His vision. He's changing it. 

GROVER: And his brothers are at, you know, can help him, because that's good. Now he can work from home, so his brothers can contribute from wherever they are. One's in Charlotte right now, and then another one's out of the country, but he still is in and out of the US on business, so he's able to... We are thankful that they are prepared to be in business and have that mindset of business and train for business. 

PAMELA: They had their idea because we just created a different type of chapel room. Its less formal, it's something where... his idea is where you can actually have repasses. Or you can meet for dinner, or it's definitely vision. 

GROVER: Or a meeting room too, for like it's the community meetings, other than the chapel. 

PAMELA: Where you can change it to accommodate other events, and totally, totally different than our former chapel. 

GROVER: Maybe I'll bring, we'll bring those rooms online real soon, and that opens up more possibilities of offering services. 

TRYPETUS: I think, is there anything else that you would love preservation to know about your funeral home? 

GROVER: If we come up with something, can we add it? No, okay don't worry about it *laughs* I think we're good between what we've recorded and what written information we can pass along. 

TRYPETUS: Thank you so much.